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Post by ghostpost on Dec 20, 2011 14:12:53 GMT -6
First of all, I haven't read anyone "blaming" Marquette for anything on this thread. Second, I for one will be happy to keep my nose out of your elitist program. The only school in America with a more inflated opinion of themselves is Notre Dame. There was a time not so long ago when I willingly cheered for all of Wisconsin's D-1 teams, but in my relatively short time as a Panther, I've come to see the true colors of both Marquette and Madison fans. I give credit to xtown for being bluntly honest and not paying phony lip service to UWM in his argument. I for one will not show deference to him simply because he went to almighty Marquette, and neither should any of the rest of you. Marquette won ONE national championship 34 years ago, and they act like they are Duke or UConn. They forget how little success they had under the likes of Bob Dukiet, Kevin O'Neill, Mike Deane, and Tom Crean before Dwayne Wade. I could rant on Wisconsin too, because before 2000, they had THREE tournament appearances since Pearl Harbor. We've all had our lean times, so get off your high horse! Green Bay had more tournament appearances in the 90s than Marquette or Wisconsin. The 2000s gave rise to three very successful D-1 programs in our state, and Green Bay also had a few 20-plus win seasons(with no postseason success, but hey, their coach got a "better job" with Toledo out of it.) The bad thing about all of this is if we don't renew these deals, no matter what the terms are, we are always going to have to deal with MU and UW fans trashing us all the time. So we may as well keep playing them in the hope that we can get lucky and stick it to them once and a while. On the other hand, jhart's viewpoint is also an easy one to take. I love it how people have such selective memories. UW-Madison's 2000 Final Four run, was THE FIRST TIME they had ever even reached the Sweet 16 in the long and storied athletics history (since what 1895?). Before Barry Alvarez and the whole "Red ink to Roses" (esp. when my parents were students there in the mid-late 70's), the Badger football teams literally played to a few thousand bored onlookers at Camp Randall. And I don't seem to recall Marquette fans talk much about how they fared throughout nearly the entire stretch between when Al left and D-Wade resurrected the program. My how things can change, eh? Don't think it can for us? It already has (from 2003-2006) albeit for a brief period of time. And it may be happening again.. right under your thumbed nose. Don't thumb your nose at us, just because you've had a lot more historical success than Milwaukee (remember that we've only been "permanently" D-I since 1990). You have also had a lot more down years... and I'll guarantee that if Discussion Boards were around during those doldrums MU and UW fans would probably be bemoaning the lack of equity in series contracts just as many Panther fans here are. I think 2-1 makes sense for both "potential" UW and MU series contracts. But I'm sure hotter heads will prevail and we will just have to look elsewhere. I'd rather a 2-2 with Davidson, Northern Iowa, Drexel, Bradley, Saint Mary's, Wichita State or any other good "Mid-Major" than a 3-1 with UW or MU. A 100% advantage (2 home games vs 1 home game for us) isn't good enough for you? Fine. Take your ball and go home. Rip up the "fair is what we deem fair" 4-1 contract. It just isn't worth it anymore when we have (and yes, we do have) other non-con options. I wasn't always of this mindset.. but people like xtownfan have made it abundantly clear that MU is not interesting in making this a competitive series (pretty hard to be competitive when you play 1 home game every 5 years of the series...). Well, at least we have one more for certain. See ya Thursday!  |
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Post by GoPanthers33 on Dec 20, 2011 14:20:15 GMT -6
Perfect posts Rock and ghost.
Couldn't have said it better.
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Post by uwmplanner on Dec 20, 2011 14:56:36 GMT -6
The real problem is support. Although MU and UW have struggled at times in the past people still support them. Our best season for average attendance was a shade of 5,000 which is probably comparable for the worst attendance average for UW or MU.
It comes down to $$$$$ and they could draw a good crowd with or without Milwaukee so why would they give up more home games?
I'm not saying we should roll over and give in to their demands, but it doesn't look like we have that much leverage.
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Post by PantherLou on Dec 20, 2011 15:09:04 GMT -6
I expect that Bo Ryan would extend Coach Jeter the same courtesy when we renegotiate the Wisconsin deal. Ha. Don't hold your breath on that one. |
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Dec 20, 2011 15:14:27 GMT -6
I expect that Bo Ryan would extend Coach Jeter the same courtesy when we renegotiate the Wisconsin deal. Ha. Don't hold your breath on that one. Lou, are you coming from the angle that you don't think Bo would extend Jeter that courtesy? Or the angle that Jeter won't be here to negotiate the deal? I assume that Jeter will still be here. If not, I would say there's no way we get a 2 for 1 with UW. Unless we hire Bo's right hand man again, and I'm not for that idea. |
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Post by uwmplanner on Dec 20, 2011 15:14:39 GMT -6
Why is it MU's job to make it a competitive series? Thats our job to make it competitive on the court. Milwaukee, UW and MU will continue to do what is in the best interest of their athletic departments.
I would love a 2 for 1 with both schools but both schools are going to do whats right for them.
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Post by skrapheap on Dec 20, 2011 16:02:59 GMT -6
Before Barry Alvarez and the whole "Red ink to Roses" (esp. when my parents were students there in the mid-late 70's), the Badger football teams literally played to a few thousand bored onlookers at Camp Randall. 
Things began to turn around a bit under Dave McClain (i sometimes wonder how the program would have continued to develop had he not died untimely), but in those days, the program was still in the doldrums. And the program took a major step back under Don Morton (veer offense, anyone?) before Alvarez was hired. i was not the only fan who was quite pleased how quickly (relatively speaking) the Badgers began to experience success under Alvarez.
it's amazing how quickly fans get accustomed to success and begin to regard it as a permanent state. The history of Badger football and Marquette basketball are good examples. Excellence is very difficult to sustain (just ask the Packers), and it's not wise to regard it as a given. |
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Post by xtownfan on Dec 20, 2011 17:33:24 GMT -6
Go run your own program and don't worry about how Marquette chooses to spend its money. Make some of your own. If that means taking your ball and going elsewhere, good luck. But the last time UWM tried that, it did not work out so well, and UWM fans are still blaming Marquette that it didn't. Oh, well. First of all, I haven't read anyone "blaming" Marquette for anything on this thread. Second, I for one will be happy to keep my nose out of your elitist program. The only school in America with a more inflated opinion of themselves is Notre Dame. There was a time not so long ago when I willingly cheered for all of Wisconsin's D-1 teams, but in my relatively short time as a Panther, I've come to see the true colors of both Marquette and Madison fans. I give credit to xtown for being bluntly honest and not paying phony lip service to UWM in his argument. I for one will not show deference to him simply because he went to almighty Marquette, and neither should any of the rest of you. Marquette won ONE national championship 34 years ago, and they act like they are Duke or UConn. They forget how little success they had under the likes of Bob Dukiet, Kevin O'Neill, Mike Deane, and Tom Crean before Dwayne Wade. I could rant on Wisconsin too, because before 2000, they had THREE tournament appearances since Pearl Harbor. We've all had our lean times, so get off your high horse! Green Bay had more tournament appearances in the 90s than Marquette or Wisconsin. The 2000s gave rise to three very successful D-1 programs in our state, and Green Bay also had a few 20-plus win seasons(with no postseason success, but hey, their coach got a "better job" with Toledo out of it.) The bad thing about all of this is if we don't renew these deals, no matter what the terms are, we are always going to have to deal with MU and UW fans trashing us all the time. So we may as well keep playing them in the hope that we can get lucky and stick it to them once and a while. On the other hand, jhart's viewpoint is also an easy one to take. How about this? Sounds like a little blaming to me. The time for MU to start playing Milwaukee again was the Bruce Pearl era. They ducked us until Pearl left and most of the players from the Sweet Sixteen squad had graduated and, thus, a true rivalry never generated. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't the least bit angry at Marquette for letting their arrogance make them too short sighted to see that an annual Milwaukee-Marquette game could've become a huge annual event in SE Wisconsin during a time of year when we have little going on.Now, let's look at those years of lack of success you referred to. Bob Dukiet was a disaster. Kevin O'Neill got to two tournaments in five years, including a Sweet Sixteen. Mike Deane got to two tournaments in five years. This does not include NIT bids. Between the two of them, they have more tournament appearances at Marquette than UWM has ever. Tom Crean had five appearances in nine years, including a Final Four, plus a couple NIT's. Elsewhere, someone suggests that the best attendance ever by UWM is probably about equal to Marquette's worst. This is not correct. The lowest that attendance has been since Marquette moved to the Bradley Center was in the 12,000 range, or more than twice the best average UWM ever had. This was preceded by about twenty years of sell-outs at the arena, which amounted to about twice the best UWM has ever had. And that is the point. At its very worst, Marquette will draw about twice as many fans as UWM at its best. And Marquette has not been at its worst for a while, as it has made six or seven consecutive NCAA appearances, a streak that shows no sign of ending any time soon. During that time, Marquette has averaged about 15,000 a game per year, which has consistently put it in about the top 15 nationwide. All of this has little to do with the legitimacy of the respective universities, the value of one's diploma, or the basic worth of each human being who attends. But in purely basketball terms, Marquette dwarfs UWM, always has, and will for the foreseeable future. Those are just facts. They also put Marquette in a much better bargaining position re: scheduling. This is also a fact. And no, Marquette fans or students or alumni do not sit around trashing UWM students. Why would they? Why would they trash anybody? Why would they bother? But there is no question which is the superior basketball program, and has been pretty much from beginning until the present. |
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Post by BBFran on Dec 20, 2011 17:41:06 GMT -6
Actually, the Badgers never "literally played to a few thousand bored onlookers" in the mid-70s. In UW's worst home attendance year in the 1970s -- it was 1970, actually -- it averaged just under 57,000 fans per game. In every other year of that decade it exceeded 60,000 per game, and in fact in 7 of those years it exceeded 70,000 per game. The attendance didn't "crash" until the Morton years of the late 80s, when in its worst year it dropped to just over 41,000 per game. Terrible by Wisconsin standards going all the way back to the mid-40s, but a far, far cry from "a few thousand fans per game."
It's a complete myth that nobody went to Badger football games before Barry showed up.
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Post by BBFran on Dec 20, 2011 17:44:29 GMT -6
P.S. I stopped reading xtown's simple-minded, turgid and boring posts years ago. What possesses some of you to keep reading this nonsense, much less responding to it? The way to deal with needy trolls is to ignore them. They post novellas like this on rivals' message boards because the people they bore at bars have long since gotten up and walked away.
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Post by ghostpost on Dec 20, 2011 19:09:00 GMT -6
I'll take your word for it Fran (just going on what my Dad told me- maybe paid attendance didn't equal actual attendance much like us?).
In any case UW was hardly a Big Ten powerhouse from 1970-1990 (combined: 92-125-6.. with not a single conference title in those 20 years).
Just trying to put the whole "longtime perennial success" = "program is and will always be holier than thou" thing into perspective. You have to think even longer term. Maybe MU and UW will never slip up and have a few down years ever again in the future..... the odds aren't in favor of that happening however.
As skrapheap (a UW-Madtown alum no less) points out- very, very few programs have always been great. I understand.
We are where we are. Even with some very significant success under Pearl and in Jeter's first year and this past year, we have a long ways to climb to sustain high-quality and earn respect from teams considering a game or series with us. Let's wait until the end of the season, assess the value of the games from each side's perspective and bargain to get both deals done.
I understand the whole Wardle (MU alum) gets a 2-1 thing... (why wouldn't UW extend the same for Jeter, who is a LOT closer to UW's program than Wardle is with the current MU program?), but I don't think it's unfair to UW or MU to agree to a 2-1 with a quality Milwaukee Panthers team that is only getting better. If either school would rather play a 50k buy game with Jacksonville or Colgate- go for it. I'm of the mind that quality teams encourage quality match-ups to make them better.
But of course, as with just about everything in life, it is about the almighty "$". Is a buy-game that much more economical than playing a more competitive game and getting more $'s in the twofold home games you get out of the deal? (MU only in this regard- I realize the Kohl Ctr. sells out even against the likes of Colgate- but the BC does not- MU fans can lie all they want, but a UWM-MU match-up will always draw more fans (and thus $) than MU vs. (insert any of the D-II cupcakes Crean routinely used to schedule or Northern Colorado... and many other steamroll/scrimmage games MU "faithful" don't even show up to).
To heck with it. Ok by me if talks breakdown for either series. I'm not as enthralled with the MU/UW match-ups as I used to be. I thought the series would be fun, but it's obvious it's just a bunch of unneeded controversy (most of it (IMO) stemming from foolish pride and illusions of grandeur- of all 3 schools involved).
Just take a 2-1 (that's still heartily respecting the bigger money programs) and play the games! Taking MU for example, with a 10+ million dollar basketball budget if you really cannot afford to play 1 road game against Milwaukee every 3 years, then I just don't think the deal makes sense. Sorry- have fun in the Mighty Morphin' Big East and forgo a quality non-con match-up.
And when I say 2-1... you have to understand I am coming from a negotiating standpoint. A 4-1 should be out of the question. But pending the outcome of this season, I do believe a 2-1 with both UW and MU should be possible. No one is talking about a home and home.
PS: Btw, I heard the Horizon League ain't that bad of a conference. A casual fan who saw the past two NCAA Title games told me that...
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Post by ghostpost on Dec 20, 2011 19:37:42 GMT -6
xtownfan- thanks for your research. Three Sweet 16's and a Final Four in the 35 years since the Golden season of '76-'77 is better than I thought. But there still is no denying that MU has not had it's stretches of mediocrity (specifically: 1983-1993... 1997-2002...). I won't mention who was the better D-I team from (Fall of) 2003-2006, lest you blow a gasket. (hey, you bring the pain, you gotta feel tha pain, bud!). No one said we are better than your precious Golden WarEagliors (still don't understand why MU cannot accept their own team's current nickname). We are just saying that treating us like a provisional D-I team is getting kind of old. Man up- and play the games. It's about more than money to most people. But money always seems to get in the way of reason, doesn't it? |
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Dec 20, 2011 19:43:26 GMT -6
P.S. I stopped reading xtown's simple-minded, turgid and boring posts years ago. What possesses some of you to keep reading this nonsense, much less responding to it? The way to deal with needy trolls is to ignore them. They post novellas like this on rivals' message boards because the people they bore at bars have long since gotten up and walked away. I hadn't been subjected to xtown's diatribes before, but I think I've succeeded in exposing him as an @$shole to anyone else that is new to the d-board. |
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Dec 20, 2011 19:47:24 GMT -6
You're a good man, and a voice of reason ghostpost.
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Post by gman2 on Dec 20, 2011 23:40:00 GMT -6
Yep, paid does not equal actual people in the stands. I had a friend that went to Wisc-Madison in the late 80's and attended a few games with him. They were lucky if there were 20,000 to 25,000 people in the stands.
Milwaukee is not in a position to dictate here. While I personally don't care for 4-1 or 7-2 series, I'm not sure if we have a better option. I guess it depends on what the payout is to UW and MU for playing at the Cell. In ticket revenue, playing UW once every five years at the Cell probably brings in more revenue than UNI or another mid major every other year. MU not so much because we simply don't get the same amount of people in the stands, and at a lower ticket price. So UW actually has a better position than MU as for determining what the series should be in the future.
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