SRT4driver
Junior
We Are MILWAUKEE! And I'm all about accountability, unlike '5th Placer' Jeter apologists.
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Post by SRT4driver on Feb 11, 2023 12:47:15 GMT -6
I've watched enough of Jalen Johnson to know he isn't one of our better players. He has limited athletic ability, barely rebounds for a big and can't pass out of double teams. There was a reason he was at Alabama A&M prevously. He would've been a better player in the 90s when non athletic bigs were frequently used on the block. That's why I hesitated to even mention him in this thread at first, lol. It's very possible that his minutes have been too limited to accurately reflect his value to the team, and stats.
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Post by FTA1982 on Feb 11, 2023 12:48:48 GMT -6
I've watched enough of Jalen Johnson to know he isn't one of our better players. He has limited athletic ability, barely rebounds for a big and can't pass out of double teams. There was a reason he was at Alabama A&M prevously. He would've been a better player in the 90s when non athletic bigs were frequently used on the block. That's why I hesitated to even mention him in this thread at first, lol. It's very possible that his minutes have been too limited to accurately reflect his value to the team, and stats. That's completely fair. Great discussion.
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Post by TBone on Feb 11, 2023 19:01:33 GMT -6
I agree that +/- really doesn't give an accurate assessment, that's why there are advanced stats. And they say (in fact are screaming!) that when Rand, Bol, and Johnson are actually allowed to see the court, they are this team's 3rd, 4th, and now 5th (not sixth) best players. And idk how me pointing out that coach choosing/forcing them to all share one position - and that one single position's playing time - might be a mistake, and worth rethinking, is somehow "manipulating the numbers in a manner that leads people to incorrect conclusions", or an "incorrect assumption". LOL. For those with an open mind, see the bottom of this page for the evidence showing who this team's 3rd, 4th, and 5th most effective players are over the entirety of this season based on all stats (not just the ones they like, or want to see). barttorvik.com/team.php?team=Milwaukee&year=2023My statement was based on the fact you were saying our best players were those with the highest +/-. sports-reference has a different formula for +/- stats, because they had Jalen sixth and Zach fifth at 0.0. Jalen is not our fifth best/most impactful player. The number may say so, but the telecasts say something entirely different. He looked far better early on, but has looked largely lost for a long time, until tonight. Keon and Vincent over JT is just incorrect. So I'll agree to disagree with you in this respect. And we're seeing tonight just how impactful Markeith is, no matter what number they have assigned to him. And I'll agree to agree with you regarding loving the Panthers, Coach Lundy and the players.
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mattg
Freshman
Member is Online
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Post by mattg on Feb 11, 2023 20:43:28 GMT -6
I mean I can't even believe this is a discussion LOL. All of our bigs have literally zero offensive skill. Rand and Bol can finish around the hoop and that's literally it. Jalen Johnson tries to bull in a china shop back down while being completely oblivious to what the defense is doing (if you told me he was closing his eyes every time he caught the ball in the post I'd believe you) and has zero ability to pass out of a double. You can't play dudes like that together especially since none of them can guard the perimeter either. On top of that, none of our bigs are any good at rebounding.
You play any combo of those 2 together and you crater the offense completely because they offer next to nothing on that end and would destroy the spacing which is what has enabled us to be a surprising shooting team this year. Like it's a completely laughable concept to even suggest it. Also, teams would just go to a basic dribble weave if we had 2 of those dudes on the court together and force them to get moving and it's just going to be a defensive breakdown within a few passes.
Further, Bol can play maybe 3 straight minutes before he totally gasses and becomes a liability on both ends of the court, when he's tired he can't even get uncontested rebounds and isn't helping on defense. Rand can play longer than Bol, but he routinely makes boneheaded plays and stupid fouls and you need to have someone to swap for him in those minutes. Jalen Johnson IMO is unplayable except in dire circumstances. He offers NOTHING. He doesn't help on the glass, doesn't protect the rim, doesn't defend the perimeter, and is an ultra inefficient scorer who only wants to ISO post up but can't pass out of the post.
What is being suggested is like basketball strategy and thinking from 40-50 years ago. The game has evolved. Thankfully Coach Lundy is smarter than that and understands that the least he can get away with playing our bigs the better it is for the team. If we can get a competent big next year some of you will be absolutely mind blown by the difference it makes.
As far as the stats being referenced go...literally pointless. Sample size is small which leads to tons of noise and we're talking about boiling everything down to BPM in regards to 2 specific guys in Bol and Rand who are physically incapable of playing big minutes (due to conditioning and foul issues). On top of that, both guys are going to show well in BPM compared to other players due to their role, they play small mins, only take spoon fed dunks/layups, and jump at everything to try and block it (which honestly hurts our defense routinely compared to if they just played straight up and used length as a deterrent instead of leaving their feet). This is such a simple concept.
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SRT4driver
Junior
We Are MILWAUKEE! And I'm all about accountability, unlike '5th Placer' Jeter apologists.
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Post by SRT4driver on Feb 12, 2023 0:31:15 GMT -6
Ahh yes, I remember when I was 18 and thought I was so much smarter than people like Bart Torvik too. Don't worry, it'll pass.
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mattg
Freshman
Member is Online
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Post by mattg on Feb 12, 2023 8:52:48 GMT -6
Ahh yes, I remember when I was 18 and thought I was so much smarter than people like Bart Torvik too. Don't worry, it'll pass. What a clown response. Just because you can't see something painfully obvious and resorted to singularly using BPM to claim that Bol, Rand, and JJ are 3 of our best players (already that's going to be a limitation of BPM reliability as a stat due to their limited mins and small team role). You then take it a step further and try and say that because of that BPM, these guys should be sharing the court at the same time, something that just doesn't make sense. None of the guys have complementary skill sets and in Rand and Bol's case, are redundant in what they bring to the table and the spots on the court they want to occupy (aka where do you put Rand offensively if Bol is playing alongside him? Either he is also in the paint and then it's totally congested and its harder for both to finish at the hoop and our guards can't drive...or he floats outside where he is ignored and his man is in the paint anyway).
Also, what I'm telling you lines up with exactly what Lundy and the coaching staff are doing en route to turning the program around and leading us to our best season since the Pearl era, maybe that should tell you something and that you're not onto some silver bullet strategy that the coaches are oblivious to.
Further, it's not about "being smarter" than Bart Torvik, I'm not saying the stats are incorrect calculated, it's a mathematical formula. What I'm saying is that all stats have limitations, and need context, and that is what you are not understanding. For example, NBA PER (another all encompassing metric based on box score stats) rates Mark Williams, Thomas Bryant, Andre Drummond, and Clint Capela ahead of Devin Booker, Bam Adebayo, Paul George, and Pascal Siakam, among others. It turns out that one of the most well known limitations of the all in one box score based stats is that big men who play a limited role and generally lower minutes grade out VERY WELL due to the nature of their game. Usually very high FG% due to only attempting dunks/layups as a play finisher, guys who get rebounds are LOVED by these stats, and blocks/steals weigh heavily as well. And then because the stats get extrapolated out to a per100 basis, all the box score stats get unreliably inflated for these guys because in reality, they cannot effectively play bigger minutes due to conditioning/foul issues (which also would lead to decrease in actual box score production).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 9:10:13 GMT -6
I'm still not convinced. Bring on the TWO TOWERS!!!!
GO PANTHERS. Just win, win, win.
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SRT4driver
Junior
We Are MILWAUKEE! And I'm all about accountability, unlike '5th Placer' Jeter apologists.
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Post by SRT4driver on Feb 12, 2023 10:23:03 GMT -6
Ahh yes, I remember when I was 18 and thought I was so much smarter than people like Bart Torvik too. Don't worry, it'll pass. What a clown response. Just because you can't see something painfully obvious and resorted to singularly using BPM to claim that Bol, Rand, and JJ are 3 of our best players (already that's going to be a limitation of BPM reliability as a stat due to their limited mins and small team role). You then take it a step further and try and say that because of that BPM, these guys should be sharing the court at the same time, something that just doesn't make sense. None of the guys have complementary skill sets and in Rand and Bol's case, are redundant in what they bring to the table and the spots on the court they want to occupy (aka where do you put Rand offensively if Bol is playing alongside him? Either he is also in the paint and then it's totally congested and its harder for both to finish at the hoop and our guards can't drive...or he floats outside where he is ignored and his man is in the paint anyway).
Also, what I'm telling you lines up with exactly what Lundy and the coaching staff are doing en route to turning the program around and leading us to our best season since the Pearl era, maybe that should tell you something and that you're not onto some silver bullet strategy that the coaches are oblivious to.
Further, it's not about "being smarter" than Bart Torvik, I'm not saying the stats are incorrect calculated, it's a mathematical formula. What I'm saying is that all stats have limitations, and need context, and that is what you are not understanding. For example, NBA PER (another all encompassing metric based on box score stats) rates Mark Williams, Thomas Bryant, Andre Drummond, and Clint Capela ahead of Devin Booker, Bam Adebayo, Paul George, and Pascal Siakam, among others. It turns out that one of the most well known limitations of the all in one box score based stats is that big men who play a limited role and generally lower minutes grade out VERY WELL due to the nature of their game. Usually very high FG% due to only attempting dunks/layups as a play finisher, guys who get rebounds are LOVED by these stats, and blocks/steals weigh heavily as well. And then because the stats get extrapolated out to a per100 basis, all the box score stats get unreliably inflated for these guys because in reality, they cannot effectively play bigger minutes due to conditioning/foul issues (which also would lead to decrease in actual box score production).
Are you the son of one of our coaches? Because you seem to know everything. Or are you maybe dating one of our Guards? Because your skewed and biased view of our Bigs, who apparently all suck in every way outside of BPM, while our Guards can do no wrong to you since you never critique them in any way, is the true clown show here. Btw, in part-time minutes yet again, Rand led all Panther scorers in a game when we severely needed it, shooting 7-9, with 2 Assists, and pulling down 6 boards (he's such a terrible rebounder lol). Again, all done in part-time minutes - just 22 in regulation I believe - making him easily the most productive and efficient player on the court offensively - and I don't even need to look it up. Not to mention I'm sure we can all guess where his post D would rank. If you actually were as smart as you think you are, you would at least suggest that Rand deserves more of Bol and Johnson's minutes, instead of ripping on him and attacking me. But carry on, kiddo, I can't wait to hear more!
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Post by ghostofdylan on Feb 12, 2023 10:26:31 GMT -6
What the world needs now ... is love, sweet love. It's the only thing ... that there's just too little of.
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Post by skrapheap on Feb 12, 2023 12:08:34 GMT -6
What the world needs now ... is love, sweet love. It's the only thing ... that there's just too little of. On a bulletin board?
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Post by reginaldkdwight on Feb 12, 2023 13:36:44 GMT -6
What a clown response. Just because you can't see something painfully obvious and resorted to singularly using BPM to claim that Bol, Rand, and JJ are 3 of our best players (already that's going to be a limitation of BPM reliability as a stat due to their limited mins and small team role). You then take it a step further and try and say that because of that BPM, these guys should be sharing the court at the same time, something that just doesn't make sense. None of the guys have complementary skill sets and in Rand and Bol's case, are redundant in what they bring to the table and the spots on the court they want to occupy (aka where do you put Rand offensively if Bol is playing alongside him? Either he is also in the paint and then it's totally congested and its harder for both to finish at the hoop and our guards can't drive...or he floats outside where he is ignored and his man is in the paint anyway).
Also, what I'm telling you lines up with exactly what Lundy and the coaching staff are doing en route to turning the program around and leading us to our best season since the Pearl era, maybe that should tell you something and that you're not onto some silver bullet strategy that the coaches are oblivious to.
Further, it's not about "being smarter" than Bart Torvik, I'm not saying the stats are incorrect calculated, it's a mathematical formula. What I'm saying is that all stats have limitations, and need context, and that is what you are not understanding. For example, NBA PER (another all encompassing metric based on box score stats) rates Mark Williams, Thomas Bryant, Andre Drummond, and Clint Capela ahead of Devin Booker, Bam Adebayo, Paul George, and Pascal Siakam, among others. It turns out that one of the most well known limitations of the all in one box score based stats is that big men who play a limited role and generally lower minutes grade out VERY WELL due to the nature of their game. Usually very high FG% due to only attempting dunks/layups as a play finisher, guys who get rebounds are LOVED by these stats, and blocks/steals weigh heavily as well. And then because the stats get extrapolated out to a per100 basis, all the box score stats get unreliably inflated for these guys because in reality, they cannot effectively play bigger minutes due to conditioning/foul issues (which also would lead to decrease in actual box score production).
Are you the son of one of our coaches? Because you seem to know everything. Or are you maybe dating one of our Guards? Because your skewed and biased view of our Bigs, who apparently all suck in every way outside of BPM, while our Guards can do no wrong to you since you never critique them in any way, is the true clown show here. Btw, in part-time minutes yet again, Rand led all Panther scorers in a game when we severely needed it, shooting 7-9, with 2 Assists, and pulling down 6 boards (he's such a terrible rebounder lol). Again, all done in part-time minutes - just 22 in regulation I believe - making him easily the most productive and efficient player on the court offensively - and I don't even need to look it up. Not to mention I'm sure we can all guess where his post D would rank. If you actually were as smart as you think you are, you would at least suggest that Rand deserves more of Bol and Johnson's minutes, instead of ripping on him and attacking me. But carry on, kiddo, I can't wait to hear more! Im wondering what the lineup you are wanting to see is? Rand played good last night but you literally fail to mention the fact he only played 22 minutes because he couldnt stop himself from reaching on the perimeter.....so really i am wondering if you even watch the game or only read the box score?
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Post by Duct_Tape_Pounce on Feb 12, 2023 13:44:54 GMT -6
Yeah, I kinda trust what Lundy is doing, as it seems fairly clear he knows a whole lot more about basketball than any of us. But our big flaw on defense lately has been on the perimeter, and having two bigs playing inside on defense would seem to exacerbate the problem.
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Post by Anonymous Quokka on Feb 12, 2023 14:04:47 GMT -6
What the world needs now ... is love, sweet love. It's the only thing ... that there's just too little of. On a bulletin board? I wouldn't go as far as to say love, but on a discussion board in which we all support the same team, I can agree a mutual respect could at least be present. At the end of the day, we're all supporting the same team. We may not all agree with one another about everything all of the time, but we can at least be civil. It can be easy to forget we're all on the same team at the end of the day, but after all, it is called a discussion board, not an argument board. That's what Facebook comment sections are for haha.
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SRT4driver
Junior
We Are MILWAUKEE! And I'm all about accountability, unlike '5th Placer' Jeter apologists.
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Post by SRT4driver on Feb 12, 2023 14:08:23 GMT -6
Yeah, I don't watch any games 🙄
As I already said, I'd like to see Rand begin to see some time at the 4 (like he did at Oregon State), while Bol's in at center, against whatever opponent Coach thinks it might work against matchup-wise.
Thus far it hasn't even been tried, so how would any of us know if I'm right or wrong? Good lord people, this isn't some crazy, untenable, impossible to implement change, like many of you are suggesting it is.
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Post by reginaldkdwight on Feb 12, 2023 15:34:14 GMT -6
You think the coaching staff hasnt tried it in practice??? Come on Rand at the 4 he has no ability to put the ball on the floor nor shoot. Plus I dont care what they did at Oregon st. they were trash just like us last year. not to mention you totally ignore the part where both Bol and Rand get into foul trouble very quick.
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