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Post by BBFran on Mar 17, 2017 8:48:13 GMT -6
I love how certain people say they want nothing to do with the program and will not come to games feel they have a right to point out low attendance....you are the problem. Also, you have your own board to rant on, why do it here as well. Last year you blasted our AD for not allowing a post season tourney, this year you are blasting the AD for allowing it. Nothing is good enough for you. I'm glad you don't come to the games. I enjoy watching them with people that actually support the program and don't try to tear it apart. [/quote][/font]
Big internet talk. People know who we are. Our record of support for the program is quite public. Who are you? Care to identify yourself? Want to compare your record of support for this program to those of us who were driven away by the astounding venality and incompetence of our AD? Many of us were loyal fans and supporters for decades.
I very much doubt that you want to make that comparison.
And by the way, no one here is taking any shots at actual fans (those very few who remain) at all; that's a bs straw man you are trying to erect because you don't have a good argument. None of us who have chosen to withhold our support and attendance have lobbied ANYONE to do the same. Like hundreds -- actually thousands -- of other fans, we have just made our own individual decisions; in our case that we cannot support a program with such low moral and ethical "leadership."
Nor is anyone "blasting" the women getting to play in the post-season. But you know that, don't you? We are blasting the utter hypocrisy of our AD. And what we are infuriated by is the fact that the decision to allow the women to play is an irrefutable confirmation that the reasons cited by the AD to fire the men's coach, deconstruct the program, chase away a group of great senior players who were excellent young men (and their families), throw out our best chance of a conference title and a tournament run in the last half-decade and set us on a ruinous path of collapsed attendance and finances -- were LIES.
Incompetence is one thing -- we lived through that with a succession of bad ADs. This is something altogether different.
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Post by BBFran on Mar 17, 2017 8:57:31 GMT -6
Okay, point taken, 45. Now please list all the things you agree that she can be blamed for. Just a gentle reminder, 45. Waiting for the list. |
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Post by PantherU on Mar 17, 2017 10:25:10 GMT -6
I love how certain people say they want nothing to do with the program and will not come to games feel they have a right to point out low attendance....you are the problem. People talk with their wallets. You can slam him and the others for not coming to games, but these are people who have been invested - a couple of them heavily with hard-earned money - and are angry that the leader of their program was so plainly undeserving of that investment. Why would they continue to spend money? All that does is make her look better. I attended every game I could this year, and you better believe I felt conflicted every time I handed my credit card over the counter. Would you say the same to people who didn't come to games last season because they didn't want to keep spending money watching a team they felt needed a change at head coach? We'll never know, because you never joined the board until March 22nd last year. It's almost like you joined up to do damage control... Also, you have your own board to rant on, why do it here as well. 1. That's my board, 2. He was a fan posting on this board a lot longer than you, and 3. No one is surprised that you want him to stop posting; it's almost like he's making an argument you don't like! Last year you blasted our AD for not allowing a post season tourney, this year you are blasting the AD for allowing it. Are you really going to stand there and question why someone is pissed off about a double standard? These are the numbers:  And if you want to go back and cite history, why not cite the failings of an athletics administrator (not Braun) were to blame for the APR ban, not the players - and then cite the fact that the players stayed. They stayed because they wanted to win together. When they didn't quite win enough - losing in the conference tournament to the eventual champion - they were invited to the postseason. The CBI, CIT and Vegas 16 all wanted them to play. Donors offered up the cash to cover costs. Players who stayed would have been rewarded for choosing to stay with us, when they could have gone to any number of schools with fantastic academics and strong basketball teams. Other players would have gained valuable postseason experience to get better for the future - experience that has helped vault some programs to deep tournament runs. Remember VCU's run to the Final Four in 2011? That was preceded by winning the CBI in 2010. In fact, of the 9 teams that have won the CBI, 5 went to the NCAA Tourney or NIT the following season and a sixth repeated the CBI. Fans would have more basketball to enjoy if they wanted, with potential home games. Before you slam this, remember you're defending someone who just took a bid to the WBI. She didn't even have to have Jeter coach it. Look at Illinois, a school that fired their head coach and has an interim coach in the NIT. It's been done plenty of times. Would any fan be against Chad Boudreau coaching the program in the CBI last season? I'm glad you don't come to the games. I enjoy watching them with people that actually support the program and don't try to tear it apart. But you're watching games with Amanda Braun...who tore the program apart. And before you go on and on, Rob Jeter was one man. Not counting coaches - by all means, ask them what they think of Amanda Braun behind closed doors - there's only a handful of people still in the department who were there when Braun started on May 1st, 2013. If Amanda Braun is so flippin' awesome as an athletic director, why can't she keep a strength and conditioning coach? Why has she been unable to get a manager for the ticket office, eight months after the interim manager left for Pitt and nearly two years after the last manager left for Marquette? If Amanda Braun is such a good judge of talent, why do the people leaving the department end up just fine? DeeDee Merritt must have been so bad at her job, who would hire her? THE NCAA HIRED HER!!! Kevin O'Connor must be such a terrible employee, where on the planet could he land? CHAPMAN HALL, THAT'S WHERE!!! The university administration is so confident in Amanda Braun's abilities that the second she pushed for the SID to move toward the exits, the administration jumped at the chance to have him in their office, where he remains to this day. I do want to highlight one thing that you said: Nothing is good enough for you. Actually, there is. Send Amanda Braun packing and I'll personally go and sell every one of these people on getting back into the program. For the ones on this board that you so magnanimously want to stay at their water fountain, I won't have to. Because they'll be back on their own. This is it. That's the last straw. George Koonce drove a wedge into this program with his hare-brained schemes, and every athletic director hire since has driven that wedge further into the program. Get rid of Amanda Braun, and this entire community will rally behind LaVall Jordan as a uniting figure. Chancellor Mone, make #UnitedWeRoar a reality and get rid of this terrible administrator. |
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Post by pantherproud on Mar 17, 2017 10:55:39 GMT -6
I love how certain people say they want nothing to do with the program and will not come to games feel they have a right to point out low attendance....you are the problem. People talk with their wallets. You can slam him and the others for not coming to games, but these are people who have been invested - a couple of them heavily with hard-earned money - and are angry that the leader of their program was so plainly undeserving of that investment. Why would they continue to spend money? All that does is make her look better. I attended every game I could this year, and you better believe I felt conflicted every time I handed my credit card over the counter. Would you say the same to people who didn't come to games last season because they didn't want to keep spending money watching a team they felt needed a change at head coach? We'll never know, because you never joined the board until March 22nd last year. It's almost like you joined up to do damage control... Also, you have your own board to rant on, why do it here as well. 1. That's my board, 2. He was a fan posting on this board a lot longer than you, and 3. No one is surprised that you want him to stop posting; it's almost like he's making an argument you don't like! Last year you blasted our AD for not allowing a post season tourney, this year you are blasting the AD for allowing it. Are you really going to stand there and question why someone is pissed off about a double standard? These are the numbers: And if you want to go back and cite history, why not cite the failings of an athletics administrator (not Braun) were to blame for the APR ban, not the players - and then cite the fact that the players stayed. They stayed because they wanted to win together. When they didn't quite win enough - losing in the conference tournament to the eventual champion - they were invited to the postseason. The CBI, CIT and Vegas 16 all wanted them to play. Donors offered up the cash to cover costs. Players who stayed would have been rewarded for choosing to stay with us, when they could have gone to any number of schools with fantastic academics and strong basketball teams. Other players would have gained valuable postseason experience to get better for the future - experience that has helped vault some programs to deep tournament runs. Remember VCU's run to the Final Four in 2011? That was preceded by winning the CBI in 2010. In fact, of the 9 teams that have won the CBI, 5 went to the NCAA Tourney or NIT the following season and a sixth repeated the CBI. Fans would have more basketball to enjoy if they wanted, with potential home games. Before you slam this, remember you're defending someone who just took a bid to the WBI. She didn't even have to have Jeter coach it. Look at Illinois, a school that fired their head coach and has an interim coach in the NIT. It's been done plenty of times. Would any fan be against Chad Boudreau coaching the program in the CBI last season? I'm glad you don't come to the games. I enjoy watching them with people that actually support the program and don't try to tear it apart. But you're watching games with Amanda Braun...who tore the program apart. And before you go on and on, Rob Jeter was one man. Not counting coaches - by all means, ask them what they think of Amanda Braun behind closed doors - there's only a handful of people still in the department who were there when Braun started on May 1st, 2013. If Amanda Braun is so flippin' awesome as an athletic director, why can't she keep a strength and conditioning coach? Why has she been unable to get a manager for the ticket office, eight months after the interim manager left for Pitt and nearly two years after the last manager left for Marquette? If Amanda Braun is such a good judge of talent, why do the people leaving the department end up just fine? DeeDee Merritt must have been so bad at her job, who would hire her? THE NCAA HIRED HER!!! Kevin O'Connor must be such a terrible employee, where on the planet could he land? CHAPMAN HALL, THAT'S WHERE!!! The university administration is so confident in Amanda Braun's abilities that the second she pushed for the SID to move toward the exits, the administration jumped at the chance to have him in their office, where he remains to this day. I do want to highlight one thing that you said: Nothing is good enough for you. Actually, there is. Send Amanda Braun packing and I'll personally go and sell every one of these people on getting back into the program. For the ones on this board that you so magnanimously want to stay at their water fountain, I won't have to. Because they'll be back on their own. This is it. That's the last straw. George Koonce drove a wedge into this program with his hare-brained schemes, and every athletic director hire since has driven that wedge further into the program. Get rid of Amanda Braun, and this entire community will rally behind LaVall Jordan as a uniting figure. Chancellor Mone, make #UnitedWeRoar a reality and get rid of this terrible administrator. So blah blah blah... I know the other board is yours. You're an idiot. I saw the twitter feed. Listen to Ed McCants. These issues happen all the time in every program. Keep it in house and come together as a team. The AD is not relevant at all. I was at every home game to support the TEAM, not the AD. Whatever issues we have don't get solved by airing dirty laundry for everyone to see. You would know that if you were ever part of a team in any sport or ever recruited by a school. Potential recruits see your stupid rants. I'm not here to defend anyone other than the players and coaches. You and your keyboard are making their rode back to the top of the league tougher. Moron. |
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Post by A Statement By SHAUN on Mar 17, 2017 11:25:38 GMT -6
People talk with their wallets. You can slam him and the others for not coming to games, but these are people who have been invested - a couple of them heavily with hard-earned money - and are angry that the leader of their program was so plainly undeserving of that investment. Why would they continue to spend money? All that does is make her look better. I attended every game I could this year, and you better believe I felt conflicted every time I handed my credit card over the counter. Would you say the same to people who didn't come to games last season because they didn't want to keep spending money watching a team they felt needed a change at head coach? We'll never know, because you never joined the board until March 22nd last year. It's almost like you joined up to do damage control... 1. That's my board, 2. He was a fan posting on this board a lot longer than you, and 3. No one is surprised that you want him to stop posting; it's almost like he's making an argument you don't like! Are you really going to stand there and question why someone is pissed off about a double standard? These are the numbers: And if you want to go back and cite history, why not cite the failings of an athletics administrator (not Braun) were to blame for the APR ban, not the players - and then cite the fact that the players stayed. They stayed because they wanted to win together. When they didn't quite win enough - losing in the conference tournament to the eventual champion - they were invited to the postseason. The CBI, CIT and Vegas 16 all wanted them to play. Donors offered up the cash to cover costs. Players who stayed would have been rewarded for choosing to stay with us, when they could have gone to any number of schools with fantastic academics and strong basketball teams. Other players would have gained valuable postseason experience to get better for the future - experience that has helped vault some programs to deep tournament runs. Remember VCU's run to the Final Four in 2011? That was preceded by winning the CBI in 2010. In fact, of the 9 teams that have won the CBI, 5 went to the NCAA Tourney or NIT the following season and a sixth repeated the CBI. Fans would have more basketball to enjoy if they wanted, with potential home games. Before you slam this, remember you're defending someone who just took a bid to the WBI. She didn't even have to have Jeter coach it. Look at Illinois, a school that fired their head coach and has an interim coach in the NIT. It's been done plenty of times. Would any fan be against Chad Boudreau coaching the program in the CBI last season? But you're watching games with Amanda Braun...who tore the program apart. And before you go on and on, Rob Jeter was one man. Not counting coaches - by all means, ask them what they think of Amanda Braun behind closed doors - there's only a handful of people still in the department who were there when Braun started on May 1st, 2013. If Amanda Braun is so flippin' awesome as an athletic director, why can't she keep a strength and conditioning coach? Why has she been unable to get a manager for the ticket office, eight months after the interim manager left for Pitt and nearly two years after the last manager left for Marquette? If Amanda Braun is such a good judge of talent, why do the people leaving the department end up just fine? DeeDee Merritt must have been so bad at her job, who would hire her? THE NCAA HIRED HER!!! Kevin O'Connor must be such a terrible employee, where on the planet could he land? CHAPMAN HALL, THAT'S WHERE!!! The university administration is so confident in Amanda Braun's abilities that the second she pushed for the SID to move toward the exits, the administration jumped at the chance to have him in their office, where he remains to this day. I do want to highlight one thing that you said: Actually, there is. Send Amanda Braun packing and I'll personally go and sell every one of these people on getting back into the program. For the ones on this board that you so magnanimously want to stay at their water fountain, I won't have to. Because they'll be back on their own. This is it. That's the last straw. George Koonce drove a wedge into this program with his hare-brained schemes, and every athletic director hire since has driven that wedge further into the program. Get rid of Amanda Braun, and this entire community will rally behind LaVall Jordan as a uniting figure. Chancellor Mone, make #UnitedWeRoar a reality and get rid of this terrible administrator. So blah blah blah... I know the other board is yours. You're an idiot. I saw the twitter feed. Listen to Ed McCants. These issues happen all the time in every program. Keep it in house and come together as a team. The AD is not relevant at all. I was at every home game to support the TEAM, not the AD. Whatever issues we have don't get solved by airing dirty laundry for everyone to see. You would know that if you were ever part of a team in any sport or ever recruited by a school. Potential recruits see your stupid rants. I'm not here to defend anyone other than the players and coaches. You and your keyboard are making their rode back to the top of the league tougher. Moron. Lol. First, pantherproud says hawk is not "classy", then calls Jimmy an idiot and moron. |
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Post by theDarkHawkReturns on Mar 17, 2017 11:31:23 GMT -6
People talk with their wallets. You can slam him and the others for not coming to games, but these are people who have been invested - a couple of them heavily with hard-earned money - and are angry that the leader of their program was so plainly undeserving of that investment. Why would they continue to spend money? All that does is make her look better. I attended every game I could this year, and you better believe I felt conflicted every time I handed my credit card over the counter. Would you say the same to people who didn't come to games last season because they didn't want to keep spending money watching a team they felt needed a change at head coach? We'll never know, because you never joined the board until March 22nd last year. It's almost like you joined up to do damage control... 1. That's my board, 2. He was a fan posting on this board a lot longer than you, and 3. No one is surprised that you want him to stop posting; it's almost like he's making an argument you don't like! Are you really going to stand there and question why someone is pissed off about a double standard? These are the numbers: And if you want to go back and cite history, why not cite the failings of an athletics administrator (not Braun) were to blame for the APR ban, not the players - and then cite the fact that the players stayed. They stayed because they wanted to win together. When they didn't quite win enough - losing in the conference tournament to the eventual champion - they were invited to the postseason. The CBI, CIT and Vegas 16 all wanted them to play. Donors offered up the cash to cover costs. Players who stayed would have been rewarded for choosing to stay with us, when they could have gone to any number of schools with fantastic academics and strong basketball teams. Other players would have gained valuable postseason experience to get better for the future - experience that has helped vault some programs to deep tournament runs. Remember VCU's run to the Final Four in 2011? That was preceded by winning the CBI in 2010. In fact, of the 9 teams that have won the CBI, 5 went to the NCAA Tourney or NIT the following season and a sixth repeated the CBI. Fans would have more basketball to enjoy if they wanted, with potential home games. Before you slam this, remember you're defending someone who just took a bid to the WBI. She didn't even have to have Jeter coach it. Look at Illinois, a school that fired their head coach and has an interim coach in the NIT. It's been done plenty of times. Would any fan be against Chad Boudreau coaching the program in the CBI last season? But you're watching games with Amanda Braun...who tore the program apart. And before you go on and on, Rob Jeter was one man. Not counting coaches - by all means, ask them what they think of Amanda Braun behind closed doors - there's only a handful of people still in the department who were there when Braun started on May 1st, 2013. If Amanda Braun is so flippin' awesome as an athletic director, why can't she keep a strength and conditioning coach? Why has she been unable to get a manager for the ticket office, eight months after the interim manager left for Pitt and nearly two years after the last manager left for Marquette? If Amanda Braun is such a good judge of talent, why do the people leaving the department end up just fine? DeeDee Merritt must have been so bad at her job, who would hire her? THE NCAA HIRED HER!!! Kevin O'Connor must be such a terrible employee, where on the planet could he land? CHAPMAN HALL, THAT'S WHERE!!! The university administration is so confident in Amanda Braun's abilities that the second she pushed for the SID to move toward the exits, the administration jumped at the chance to have him in their office, where he remains to this day. I do want to highlight one thing that you said: Actually, there is. Send Amanda Braun packing and I'll personally go and sell every one of these people on getting back into the program. For the ones on this board that you so magnanimously want to stay at their water fountain, I won't have to. Because they'll be back on their own. This is it. That's the last straw. George Koonce drove a wedge into this program with his hare-brained schemes, and every athletic director hire since has driven that wedge further into the program. Get rid of Amanda Braun, and this entire community will rally behind LaVall Jordan as a uniting figure. Chancellor Mone, make #UnitedWeRoar a reality and get rid of this terrible administrator. So blah blah blah... I know the other board is yours. You're an idiot. I saw the twitter feed. Listen to Ed McCants. These issues happen all the time in every program. Keep it in house and come together as a team. The AD is not relevant at all. I was at every home game to support the TEAM, not the AD. Whatever issues we have don't get solved by airing dirty laundry for everyone to see. You would know that if you were ever part of a team in any sport or ever recruited by a school. Potential recruits see your stupid rants. I'm not here to defend anyone other than the players and coaches. You and your keyboard are making their rode back to the top of the league tougher. Moron. *Road....not rode. Moron. And for the record, some of were receuited and did play team sports. |
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Post by MKEPanthers45 on Mar 17, 2017 11:54:20 GMT -6
Okay, point taken, 45. Now please list all the things you agree that she can be blamed for. Just a gentle reminder, 45. Waiting for the list. I've stated them on here before, and i'm sorry but I don't really feel like going through it all again just to start another internet argument that won't change anyones mind anyway. |
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Post by A Statement By SHAUN on Mar 17, 2017 13:04:16 GMT -6
I think the main question is this: is it possible to support the team (coaches, players) without supporting Braun? Or is any support for the team also support for Braun?
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Post by PantherU on Mar 17, 2017 13:59:20 GMT -6
So blah blah blah... I know the other board is yours. You're an idiot. I saw the twitter feed. Listen to Ed McCants. These issues happen all the time in every program. Keep it in house and come together as a team. The AD is not relevant at all. I was at every home game to support the TEAM, not the AD. Whatever issues we have don't get solved by airing dirty laundry for everyone to see. You would know that if you were ever part of a team in any sport or ever recruited by a school. Potential recruits see your stupid rants. I'm not here to defend anyone other than the players and coaches. You and your keyboard are making their rode back to the top of the league tougher. Moron. I love how you spell road incorrectly in one sentence and then call me a moron in the next. That sh*t is priceless. For those who don't use Twitter, I'll speak to this discussion Ed and I had on there. Ed was responding to a series of tweets I posted showing where the transferred Panthers would have ended up if they played in 35 games for Milwaukee this season and averaged the same numbers they had last season rather than improve. Ed's point was that he didn't think I should spend time talking about the players who transferred because they chose to leave. That's a fair argument and well-noted. Those transfers weren't the only ones who were screwed out of the chance to play in the postseason - Cody Wichmann, Brock Stull, a bunch of the players that you cheer for were screwed all the same. So if you want to focus on the guys who stuck around, please do so. It only serves my argument. For the sake of your argument, pantherproud, you better hope and pray that Ed McCants doesn't speak publicly about what he thinks of Amanda Braun. Same goes for most players from the early-to-mid-2000's, save for Justin Lettenberger, obviously. His email to Amanda last March, which was published as part of the Media Milwaukee's open records request into the university, was disappointing to me. I consider Justin a friend and I was hurt to see that he would say some of the things he said in there, especially considering the fact that Chris Hill was his teammate. I forgive him because he's still a good person. He also hasn't hidden from view, or tried to mask who he is. Which is more than we can say for you. I sure hope no one comes to your defense about how recruits see us talk on here and on social media. Plenty of the people who agree with you also shouted me down when I suggested the same thing several times between 2007 and 2010. That's fine. Recruits who nitpick over the tweets and forum posts of fans also will find that every single one of us has nothing but good things to say about LaVall Jordan and his staff. I'm happy to debate all of this publicly in the open if you like, since that seems to be what's so important to Mueller and McBride. |
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Post by PantherNation on Mar 17, 2017 14:42:08 GMT -6
I think the main question is this: is it possible to support the team (coaches, players) without supporting Braun? Or is any support for the team also support for Braun? Apparently many on this board seem to think they can support the team without supporting Braun. Even though they no longer go to games, donate money, buy Panthers gear, or even say one nice thing about the program. But apparently they get a lifetime pass since they used to. I don't agree with Ted Thompson's handling of free agent acquisitions and am one of the people who believe he's wasting Rodgers' prime years. But I'm not going to refuse to support the Packers just because I think there are better GMs. In fact I don't think I know anyone that would be that unreasonable. |
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Post by BBFran on Mar 17, 2017 14:57:24 GMT -6
Do you contribute money to the Packers? (Not buy tickets -- contribute money. A lot of it.) Do you volunteer your time to serve on boards and committees for the Packers? (Not, do you watch Packer games on TV in your jammies -- have you donated time and your professional skills over years to improve the organization?) Has Ted Thompson fired Mike McCarthy, and constructed a series of lies to explain the firing when it was really just because he was threatened by his competence and wanted to show everybody who was the boss? Did Ted Thompson's decision to let a free agent go unsigned result in the loss of 45% of the Packers' attendance last year?
Is Milwaukee basketball a privately held entity?
A list of questions like this is almost literally endless. To say you have made a terrible analogy would be an insult to analogies everywhere.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 17, 2017 15:09:45 GMT -6
I think the main question is this: is it possible to support the team (coaches, players) without supporting Braun? Or is any support for the team also support for Braun? Apparently many on this board seem to think they can support the team without supporting Braun. Even though they no longer go to games, donate money, buy Panthers gear, or even say one nice thing about the program. But apparently they get a lifetime pass since they used to. I don't agree with Ted Thompson's handling of free agent acquisitions and am one of the people who believe he's wasting Rodgers' prime years. But I'm not going to refuse to support the Packers just because I think there are better GMs. In fact I don't think I know anyone that would be that unreasonable. Sorry PN, this is an apples to oranges comparison. No one is questioning Ted Thompson's motivation. We just question why Mark Murphy still thinks he can do the job. On second thought, maybe it isn't an apples to oranges comparison. |
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Post by PantherU on Mar 17, 2017 15:37:34 GMT -6
I'll save BBFran and MKEPanthers45 the time, because I want us to stop eating our young. Here's what 45 has posted against Braun in the last year: I'm all for the firing of Amanda, but not so much Mone. How on earth does Amanda still have a job? Like I said, I don't agree with every move, the neutral site tournament was definitely one of them haha. Quotes after this are not quoted exactly because #GutlessAdmin locked the threads. |
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Post by MKEPanthers45 on Mar 17, 2017 15:48:40 GMT -6
I'll save BBFran and MKEPanthers45 the time, because I want us to stop eating our young. Here's what 45 has posted against Braun in the last year: I'm all for the firing of Amanda, but not so much Mone. How on earth does Amanda still have a job? Like I said, I don't agree with every move, the neutral site tournament was definitely one of them haha. Quotes after this are not quoted exactly because #GutlessAdmin locked the threads. Haha well there you go. Like I think i've always said, I was happy with Jeter getting fired, just not how it went down and some of the stuff after. I just decided I would rather spend my time being positive about the program and supportive of LaVall and the guys(hence why I was at 90% of home games and 3 of 4 tournament games in Detroit), then being negative about stuff I probably won't be able to change. |
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Post by BBFran on Mar 17, 2017 16:15:25 GMT -6
45, I find it deeply ironic that you have a picture of Matt Tiby as your icon. You understand what he thinks of the program now, right? Matt was one of the greatest players in the history of our program. I daresay I'll be shocked if we ever have another player as good, or as passionate, given the dire circumstances we find ourselves in now.
And he got thrown out like a baby with the bathwater.
Fair warning to any potential recruits and their parents: learn what happened here before you make any decision to play here under our duplicitous AD. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.
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