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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on May 13, 2016 20:46:15 GMT -6
Jimmy,
The point was he is not jerk. Period. You can't have your coach at dinners and out where ever that might be not saying hello, when fans are coming up to him saying hello. That is not good. I don't know what others are thinking in terms of your others questions. Just saying in what I hear and read from people over the past six years or so. Could it be a Pearl vs Jeter thing? Sure it can! It's hard being the guy replacing the "guy". Hell, UCLA is still having that problem.
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on May 13, 2016 21:04:03 GMT -6
Plus, to go on record, I wasn't in the Fire Jeter camp. Just go look at the candidates to replace Jeter thread that went on for years.
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on May 13, 2016 21:25:10 GMT -6
So would you be willing to agree that at least some people, possibly more, are willing to look past potential faults in Amanda Braun's body of work as Director of Athletics because they don't care how the change was made as long as it was made? Would you be willing to agree that these people may have come to that "ends justify the means" conclusion because they have a personal dislike of Rob Jeter due to these "cold shoulder" moments where they didn't get their fanboy moments that they got with Bruce Pearl? Would you be willing to agree that the stoicism of Jeter relative to the flamboyant Pearl lead to certain people were clamoring for a coach with a wildly outgoing personality over a coach who is calm and measured on the sideline? And moreover, since a coach's demeanor makes little difference in relation to success (wild Bobby Gonzalez failed at Seton Hall, while stoic Brad Stevens of Butler could be the greatest coach in a generation), that their motivation for wanting Rob Jeter fired at all costs was driven by personal animus rather than a basis in results? Would you agree that personal dislike for Rob Jeter could drive someone to ignore certain things, such as the fact that in 120 years of basketball history that heights reached in Bruce Pearl's final season have never been matched before or since, and judging one coach based solely on his inability to reach a Sweet 16 is rather ignorant of our history as a program? Or that they may ignore the almost universally-held truth that Bruce Pearl consistently broke the rules in recruiting and Rob Jeter was above board, essentially creating an apples and oranges comparison? Or they may blame the 2014-15 season and the APR ban on Rob Jeter, despite NCAA findings and Bill Michaels' report Wednesday that show the team was banned due to administrative malpractice? Or they can ignore the fact that the absolute best time to part with Rob Jeter was after next season, when his contract was ending and the senior-to-be-laden roster was largely intact whereas the rosters everywhere else in the conference are imploding? And on that last point, that they may blindly agree with Amanda's assertion that coaches aren't kept in the final year of their contract, despite not only isn't it "not done" to keep coaches in the final year of their contracts, but many work on one-year contracts (Scott Nagy at South Dakota State)? It's not personal for everyone. People want to taste the fine wine of 2005 again, and they may believe that there was no chance of that with Rob Jeter as head coach. But it became personal for a lot of people, many of whom are reading this right now. And they can spend their time and effort saying I "hate" Amanda Braun in order to justify their own vitriol. But know I can see right through it, and I'm not the only one who seemingly has x-ray vision. I'm happy to go back to making this a discussion about Amanda Braun's work as athletic director. But if people want to keep talking about Rob Jeter, I'm happy to try and discern why they're so interested in doing so despite the guy being given his walking papers almost two full months ago. I'm happy to not talk about Rob jeter but I'm still waiting for a good non rob related reason why the ad should be fired. You didn't like her statement about why no postseason this year. ..hardly grounds for dismissal. I'm a rational person and I have been given no proof of fraud, etc. Makes it seem like a witch hunt. You don't need grounds for dismissal. Just put performance. Right or wrong she is viewed as a liabilty to the department. |
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Post by PantherU on May 14, 2016 8:31:32 GMT -6
Plus, to go on record, I wasn't in the Fire Jeter camp. Just go look at the candidates to replace Jeter thread that went on for years. I also wasn't talking about you. We had a pretty long phone conversation a few weeks ago where you were pretty clear you weren't in the "Fire Jeter" camp (I'd argue that was a fortress built in concrete). |
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Post by theDarkHawkReturns on May 14, 2016 8:53:50 GMT -6
So would you be willing to agree that at least some people, possibly more, are willing to look past potential faults in Amanda Braun's body of work as Director of Athletics because they don't care how the change was made as long as it was made? Would you be willing to agree that these people may have come to that "ends justify the means" conclusion because they have a personal dislike of Rob Jeter due to these "cold shoulder" moments where they didn't get their fanboy moments that they got with Bruce Pearl? Would you be willing to agree that the stoicism of Jeter relative to the flamboyant Pearl lead to certain people were clamoring for a coach with a wildly outgoing personality over a coach who is calm and measured on the sideline? And moreover, since a coach's demeanor makes little difference in relation to success (wild Bobby Gonzalez failed at Seton Hall, while stoic Brad Stevens of Butler could be the greatest coach in a generation), that their motivation for wanting Rob Jeter fired at all costs was driven by personal animus rather than a basis in results? Would you agree that personal dislike for Rob Jeter could drive someone to ignore certain things, such as the fact that in 120 years of basketball history that heights reached in Bruce Pearl's final season have never been matched before or since, and judging one coach based solely on his inability to reach a Sweet 16 is rather ignorant of our history as a program? Or that they may ignore the almost universally-held truth that Bruce Pearl consistently broke the rules in recruiting and Rob Jeter was above board, essentially creating an apples and oranges comparison? Or they may blame the 2014-15 season and the APR ban on Rob Jeter, despite NCAA findings and Bill Michaels' report Wednesday that show the team was banned due to administrative malpractice? Or they can ignore the fact that the absolute best time to part with Rob Jeter was after next season, when his contract was ending and the senior-to-be-laden roster was largely intact whereas the rosters everywhere else in the conference are imploding? And on that last point, that they may blindly agree with Amanda's assertion that coaches aren't kept in the final year of their contract, despite not only isn't it "not done" to keep coaches in the final year of their contracts, but many work on one-year contracts (Scott Nagy at South Dakota State)? It's not personal for everyone. People want to taste the fine wine of 2005 again, and they may believe that there was no chance of that with Rob Jeter as head coach. But it became personal for a lot of people, many of whom are reading this right now. And they can spend their time and effort saying I "hate" Amanda Braun in order to justify their own vitriol. But know I can see right through it, and I'm not the only one who seemingly has x-ray vision. I'm happy to go back to making this a discussion about Amanda Braun's work as athletic director. But if people want to keep talking about Rob Jeter, I'm happy to try and discern why they're so interested in doing so despite the guy being given his walking papers almost two full months ago. I'm happy to not talk about Rob jeter but I'm still waiting for a good non rob related reason why the ad should be fired. You didn't like her statement about why no postseason this year. ..hardly grounds for dismissal. I'm a rational person and I have been given no proof of fraud, etc. Makes it seem like a witch hunt. I mentioned a whole list of things Braun has done that are at minimum unprofessional, and taken as a whole, grounds forntermination, almost all of which you have outright ignored, focusing on only 1 item on that list. Why don't you take my list and refute each item and give us all your excuse for looking past it or justifying it. I even included a non basketball item that is particularly troubling. If you really want me to believe she is so fantastic, you need to do this, not just repeat the same tired attack on those of us who do not support her (you just hste her), and the same tired argument (where is your proof). The former is false in its face, and the latter has been proven to be also with the release of emails and the comments of those who personally witnessed the behavior. I will be waiting. |
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Post by pantherproud on May 14, 2016 14:34:03 GMT -6
I'm happy to not talk about Rob jeter but I'm still waiting for a good non rob related reason why the ad should be fired. You didn't like her statement about why no postseason this year. ..hardly grounds for dismissal. I'm a rational person and I have been given no proof of fraud, etc. Makes it seem like a witch hunt. I mentioned a whole list of things Braun has done that are at minimum unprofessional, and taken as a whole, grounds forntermination, almost all of which you have outright ignored, focusing on only 1 item on that list. Why don't you take my list and refute each item and give us all your excuse for looking past it or justifying it. I even included a non basketball item that is particularly troubling. If you really want me to believe she is so fantastic, you need to do this, not just repeat the same tired attack on those of us who do not support her (you just hste her), and the same tired argument (where is your proof). The former is false in its face, and the latter has been proven to be also with the release of emails and the comments of those who personally witnessed the behavior. I will be waiting. It's hard to refute a whole list when most of the list is your opinion. You didn't like her decisions I get that and I don't agree with all of them either. But you are calling for her firing based on your opinion and claiming it is fraud and deceit when it is really her making difficult decisions in the realm of her jubilee duties. We don't all agree with them but unprofessional and lying are not reality. If she had publicly blasted jeter after firing him I would agree it's unprofessional. But every interview she gave about firing and postseason were actually very professional and the reason was performance, not Jeter blasting at all. But a non jeter supporter sitting behind him during a game?  Really??? That's not an argument for firing. Did he breath on him wrong or something? Again that kind of argument makes it sound like you are on a witch hunt. |
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Post by Pantherholic on May 14, 2016 18:59:49 GMT -6
Holic, doesn't it seem a bit tourtured to try to figure out how to fire a coach who just got post season invites? I mean, especially since not making post season play is why you are supposedly firing the guy in the first place. No because he was only invited to the worthless tournaments. How worthless are they? 2 of the 3 couldn't fill all of their allotments for teams. Boy, those sound like winners! I'm apparently in the minority in not handing out participation awards to finishing in 5th place but to each their own I guess. Is the CIT/CBI any more worthwhile when it's paid for by donors? The answer is no. A crap tournament is still just as crappy regardless of how t's funded. Same thing she did to the tennis coach. "Here is your performance bonus for winning the conference, etc. Now I regret to inform you that you are fired due to poor performance." I have to assume you don't really follow college sports because if you did, you'd realize that in the hierarchy of sports, tennis is nowhere near the top. I'm not going to say "no one cares about college tennis" but it may be as relevant as some club teams. Name the last time an AD was fired over the handling of the school's tennis program. It's not a priority. I'm glad everyone is so up in arms over this firing, especially since no one ever spoke of it on the board until after Jeter was fired. How convenient that it's NOW an issue. It IS just that stupid, and she did it....twice now. If you want to fire Jeter, fine, then fire him after a crap season. Don't wait until you can skim enough koney into a slush fund, and then do it after a not crap season, and then say it was all because of crap seasons. Finishing 5th and being eliminated in the quarterfinals of the tourney isn't a crap season? We had hopes of contending for top of the conference and fell dramatically short. That's not a crap season? How bad did you think we were going to be this year?! |
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on May 14, 2016 19:46:43 GMT -6
Panthers were a dispointing 5th place. Most everyone said that after the loss to Green Bay. Now, the haters are pointing to 20 wins. Let's be real. It was 18-13 versus D1 teams. As I said and most disagreed when it was said after no post-season, that Jeter was gone. Let's not call the CBI, CIT and Vegas16 post season invites. They are pay to play. That being said, if a booster is willing to pay or demand to pay the total cost, why not play in those tournaments? The answer was easy this year as Braun was going to fire the coaching staff.
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Post by mke2chi on May 15, 2016 12:24:05 GMT -6
As an administrator in higher education and alum of UWM I am quite appalled at the current situation of both athletics and the university leadership. If everything that has transpired in athletics occurred at any of the places I had been previously, the following would have occurred: administrative leave for Braun and internal investigation by the university general counsel into the handling of the climate study and alleged intimidation by the AD in her first meeting. Her attempt to squash any whistle blowers by creating a hostile environment is unacceptable in any business practice public or private.
I understand the approach of the university to redact as much as possible in the FOIA request because yes this is a personnel decision. However, such a public firing and poor handling of the situation not only internally but externally deserves to shed some light on the process. This was the termination of one of the higher paid employees in the UW system. The student paper isn't going to have the resources or ability to file suit to appeal their decision. Hopefully these other news agencies request a review of the process to see how far over the line the university crossed in this activity. From the quotes of two FOIA experts by Milwaukee Media, it's pretty evident that the university did not fully comply or at minimum redacted more information than they were allowed by law.
Alienating donors, she has clearly done that by pissing off a handful of donors that had been involved in the program for a long time and had contributed significant resources to not only athletics but academics as well. Yes, she is still showing love to donors who support her...but are those donors capable of matching the gifts that were lost? I saw a tweet about how Braun handled an alumni function recently and it's a disgrace that she couldn't even welcome alumni back to campus.
I'm hopeful more of the details of the emails as well as this 30 some odd page diary are released. I think it would provide great context into what a dumpster fire it really has been. The old adage of where there is smoke, there is fire...this has been smoking and smoldering for more than three years. This falls on the chancellors office as well.
Someone who isn't available to defend or provide comment on their actions at a public research university should not be in their role. Braun was hired with a former lover on her search committee and influence by government officials instead of her ability as an athletics administrator. Out of the candidates that had interviewed she was the least qualified.
I'm very excited to see the public push for support by the new coach. He seems to be getting involved at every opportunity. Rob did that much later in his career at Milwaukee but was not public like Pearl or this new guy. It would be intriguing to know where the disconnect occurred in this coaching search and if that falls on the AD, the chancellor or the search firm.
There are many questions we all have and will probably get few answers, which is why we all speculate and ponder. This is a forum for that. If you don't ask the question or seek the answer for the actions and results then we are no better for it. Each of us has different experiences with this university and athletic department. Some have been positive and others have been negative. The true mark of a leader isn't how you deal with the positive, it's how you respond to the negative and work to create change in the positive direction. For the last three years in my experiences and observations we are not headed in a positive direction as a whole both in Chapman Hall and the Klotsche Center.
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Post by skrapheap on May 15, 2016 19:59:59 GMT -6
It's hard to refute a whole list when most of the list is your opinion. You didn't like her decisions I get that and I don't agree with all of them either. But you are calling for her firing based on your opinion and claiming it is fraud and deceit when it is really her making difficult decisions in the realm of her jubilee duties. We don't all agree with them but unprofessional and lying are not reality. If she had publicly blasted jeter after firing him I would agree it's unprofessional. But every interview she gave about firing and postseason were actually very professional and the reason was performance, not Jeter blasting at all. But a non jeter supporter sitting behind him during a game? Really??? That's not an argument for firing. Did he breath on him wrong or something? Again that kind of argument makes it sound like you are on a witch hunt. So anyone who disagrees with you is on a witch hunt? Got it. You appear to have decided that critics of Amanda Braun judge her actions negatively because of their dislike for her. When those critics try to tell you it's the other way around, that they have come to feel she should be fired because of her actions, you decide you know their minds better than they do, dismiss their arguments, and whine about their inability to "move on." Before the whole situation arose around the end of the 2015-16 men's basketball season, the only negative comments i read on this board about Amanda Braun were "out of the blue" rants by anonymous poster(s), and none of the regular posters on this board were in any hurry to pay attention to those rants. If people on this board hated Braun so much that their bias against her made them see her actions in a jaundiced light, why did they not immediately start calling for her firing then? If the people criticizing her on this board are just "haters," why didn't they take up the cause against her years ago when the negative posts started? |
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Post by PantherU on May 15, 2016 21:43:02 GMT -6
I also don't understand how I spent years getting blasted for being one of a handful of people who approved of Rob Jeter's job performance, then when he gets fired people say the uproar is because he was a popular coach.
I'm not surrendering my 5th-Placer street cred. There are plenty of people who were happy to move on from Jeter that want to see Braun justly get booted out of our program too.
Sent from my SM-G930R4 using proboards
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Post by pantherproud on May 16, 2016 7:19:37 GMT -6
It's hard to refute a whole list when most of the list is your opinion. You didn't like her decisions I get that and I don't agree with all of them either. But you are calling for her firing based on your opinion and claiming it is fraud and deceit when it is really her making difficult decisions in the realm of her jubilee duties. We don't all agree with them but unprofessional and lying are not reality. If she had publicly blasted jeter after firing him I would agree it's unprofessional. But every interview she gave about firing and postseason were actually very professional and the reason was performance, not Jeter blasting at all. But a non jeter supporter sitting behind him during a game? Really??? That's not an argument for firing. Did he breath on him wrong or something? Again that kind of argument makes it sound like you are on a witch hunt. So anyone who disagrees with you is on a witch hunt? Got it. You appear to have decided that critics of Amanda Braun judge her actions negatively because of their dislike for her. When those critics try to tell you it's the other way around, that they have come to feel she should be fired because of her actions, you decide you know their minds better than they do, dismiss their arguments, and whine about their inability to "move on." Before the whole situation arose around the end of the 2015-16 men's basketball season, the only negative comments i read on this board about Amanda Braun were "out of the blue" rants by anonymous poster(s), and none of the regular posters on this board were in any hurry to pay attention to those rants. If people on this board hated Braun so much that their bias against her made them see her actions in a jaundiced light, why did they not immediately start calling for her firing then? If the people criticizing her on this board are just "haters," why didn't they take up the cause against her years ago when the negative posts started? I'm not saying that at all. We are all entitled to our opinions. Darkhawk asked me to refute his listed so I did. My point was only that what he claims are facts I feel are his opinions. I have still yet to see hard evidence that the ad has done anything fraudulent. Some anonymous diary also doesn't work for me. Whatever my daughter writes in her diary isn't always fact regardless of what she thinks. Just another person's opinion. I was simply making the point that an argument about who sits by who during a game is something my 6 year old would use and not relevant to anyone's job performance. My argument isn't that Braun is great..far from it. It's that more ad turnover is worse than keeping her right now. |
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Post by theDarkHawkReturns on May 16, 2016 7:55:26 GMT -6
So anyone who disagrees with you is on a witch hunt? Got it. You appear to have decided that critics of Amanda Braun judge her actions negatively because of their dislike for her. When those critics try to tell you it's the other way around, that they have come to feel she should be fired because of her actions, you decide you know their minds better than they do, dismiss their arguments, and whine about their inability to "move on." Before the whole situation arose around the end of the 2015-16 men's basketball season, the only negative comments i read on this board about Amanda Braun were "out of the blue" rants by anonymous poster(s), and none of the regular posters on this board were in any hurry to pay attention to those rants. If people on this board hated Braun so much that their bias against her made them see her actions in a jaundiced light, why did they not immediately start calling for her firing then? If the people criticizing her on this board are just "haters," why didn't they take up the cause against her years ago when the negative posts started? I'm not saying that at all. We are all entitled to our opinions. Darkhawk asked me to refute his listed so I did. My point was only that what he claims are facts I feel are his opinions. I have still yet to see hard evidence that the ad has done anything fraudulent. Some anonymous diary also doesn't work for me. Whatever my daughter writes in her diary isn't always fact regardless of what she thinks. Just another person's opinion. I was simply making the point that an argument about who sits by who during a game is something my 6 year old would use and not relevant to anyone's job performance. My argument isn't that Braun is great..far from it. It's that more ad turnover is worse than keeping her right now. The "fraud" I refer to is, in part, the re-purposing of donated money specifically earmarked for the trip to Europe. This was made clear in various places, by the donors themselves, on numerous occasions and is NOT my opinion. It happened, and if it were the private sector, could be actionable as fraud, at least civilly. When an investment is made for a specific purpose, and those funds are not used for that purpose, but to serve some other goal of the CEO, that can be, and often is, considered fraud. Want a real life example? If you donated to the Wounded Warrior Project, and expect that donation will be used specifically for supporting wounded service men and women, and then those funds are used to serve the personal needs or goals of the CEO and other management, you have been defrauded. I wold point out that in this case, there was not even a specific earmarking of the money, whereas in the Milwaukee case, there was very specific earmarking that was ignored. When this happened to The Wounded Warrior Project, people were fired and/or resigned, and scorn was heaped on the organization. But in Milwaukee, we attack those who call out this type of fraud as haters and ignorant hillbillies, praise the person responsible for the fraud, and demand everyone support her at all costs. And that, in a nutshell, is why UWM is a mess. And those of you who continue to look the other way are contributors to that mess, and should be ashamed of yourselves. |
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Post by PantherU on May 16, 2016 17:24:09 GMT -6
My argument isn't that Braun is great..far from it. It's that more ad turnover is worse than keeping her right now. Stripping down the entire thing to just this. Explain why, please. |
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Post by skrapheap on May 16, 2016 22:28:50 GMT -6
My argument isn't that Braun is great..far from it. It's that more ad turnover is worse than keeping her right now. Stripping down the entire thing to just this. Explain why, please. Yes, please. Kindly explain why getting rid of someone who thinks she should be immune to criticism for her mistakes would be a bad thing. |
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Really??? That's not an argument for firing. Did he breath on him wrong or something? Again that kind of argument makes it sound like you are on a witch hunt.