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Post by Super King on Dec 14, 2011 14:57:26 GMT -6
If kelm hadn't played I don't know whether we'd have gone to Christian Wolf, and he was one of two Panthers whose +/- stat wasn't negative. (The other was Evan Richard, who was +9 in the game, and is +3.3 for the season)
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Post by tyrunner0097 on Dec 14, 2011 15:33:21 GMT -6
If we keep playing the way we did in the second half against UW and get back to full strength, this team is pretty damn scary...I honestly see us possibly being as good as 16-2 in league play IF we get Kelm and Ja'Rob back at full strength...
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Post by PANTHERfan on Dec 14, 2011 15:54:30 GMT -6
We'll find out real quick what this team is capable of in Conference play with the road trip to Valpo and Butler. If Milwaukee comes home with two wins, perhaps a 16-2 record is possible. I still think the Horizon will be brutal this year, with 4 or 5 losses maybe netting a first place finish.
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Post by tyrunner0097 on Dec 14, 2011 16:01:43 GMT -6
14-4 sounds reasonable...
I am hinging my predictions on that we will not lose a home conference game and that we will be losing on the road to Butler and Cleveland State...
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Post by thepantherfan on Dec 14, 2011 16:17:44 GMT -6
I will probably be the only one not to single out the poor FT shooting. Yes, probably. "Free throws were the difference in the game," UWM coach Rob Jeter said. "We make a few more and it's a different story." FT shooting is an easy scapegoat and lets coaches and players off the hook for other poor decisions. I can just as easily say "shooting in the first half was the difference in this game", and no one could really prove me otherwise. I agree entirely that with a few more it's a different story. But a different story that probably still ends up in a loss. Holding all else equal, we would have needed to make almost twice as many FT's on the same amount of attempts just to force an overtime. |
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Post by GoPanthers33 on Dec 14, 2011 16:36:51 GMT -6
Yes, probably. "Free throws were the difference in the game," UWM coach Rob Jeter said. "We make a few more and it's a different story." FT shooting is an easy scapegoat and lets coaches and players off the hook for other poor decisions. I can just as easily say "shooting in the first half was the difference in this game", and no one could really prove me otherwise. I agree entirely that with a few more it's a different story. But a different story that probably still ends up in a loss. Holding all else equal, we would have needed to make almost twice as many FT's on the same amount of attempts just to force an overtime. Not exactly. Because had we only made 2 or 3 free throws we would not have needed to foul in the final minute. Just because we lost by 6 does not mean we needed to make 6 more since they wouldn't have had a few points because we wouldn't have fouled. |
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Post by jhart05 on Dec 14, 2011 16:53:10 GMT -6
I don't know, I find it difficult to point to just about anything and say that specifically lost a game in any sport. You don't know what adjustments the other team might have made to counter.
Like in baseball. A player gets thrown out on a SB attempt and the next guy gets a hit. Someone will always say "now we would have had runners at 1st and 3rd". Well, you can't really say that, the pitcher probably throws different pitches if that runner is still on first. Probably throws a few more breaking balls down in the zone trying to get the DP.
"Changes the game" yes, "cost you the game" that's almost impossible to say.
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Post by thepantherfan on Dec 14, 2011 16:57:29 GMT -6
FT shooting is an easy scapegoat and lets coaches and players off the hook for other poor decisions. I can just as easily say "shooting in the first half was the difference in this game", and no one could really prove me otherwise. I agree entirely that with a few more it's a different story. But a different story that probably still ends up in a loss. Holding all else equal, we would have needed to make almost twice as many FT's on the same amount of attempts just to force an overtime. Not exactly. Because had we only made 2 or 3 free throws we would not have needed to foul in the final minute. Just because we lost by 6 does not mean we needed to make 6 more since they wouldn't have had a few points because we wouldn't have fouled. Are you really going to play clairvoyant, here? The truth is, due to the multitude of alternative scenarios, it's absolutely impossible to divine what would have happened had we made 2 or 3 more free-throws. Had we gone into the final minutes of the game with lead, it would have no doubt changed how both teams were playing and the outcome is a beyond a certainty. Who is to say that our not fouling wouldn't have lead to a bunch of made 3pt baskets by UW? had we had the lead they no doubt would have been launching them. We can dream about alternate scenarios all we want, but blaming the outcome of the game on one single factor assumes, implicitly, that everything else was smooth sailing. |
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Post by thepantherfan on Dec 14, 2011 17:12:34 GMT -6
Do keep in mind that I'm not arguing that FT's don't matter, or that our team shouldn't be expected to shoot a better percentage from the FT line. I just think that pinning the loss of a game, that has 40 minutes of variables, on FT shooting alone is ridiculous. It discounts, entirely, the 40 minutes of play that the Panthers had to put themselves in a position to not lose even if they did only make 7 FT's
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Post by GoPanthers33 on Dec 14, 2011 17:48:10 GMT -6
I think you misunderstood me.
I wasn't saying that would've won us the game. UW could've made a bunch of 3's or something.
All I said was that we did not need 6 as you stated. 2 or 3 could've led to a win.
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Post by thepantherfan on Dec 14, 2011 18:06:26 GMT -6
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that would've won us the game. UW could've made a bunch of 3's or something. All I said was that we did not need 6 as you stated. 2 or 3 could've led to a win. I stated "holding all else equal" we would have needed 6 additional FT's, which would be correct. However, I've been trying to make the point that "holding all else equal" is the only way anyone can make a case for additional FTM winning the game WITH CERTAINTY, and those assumptions are far-fetched. Since we all agree that its entirely implausible that the same exact game is played out after we make the additional FT's, the idea that we would have some how won the game, with any degree of certainty, is asinine at best. |
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Post by GoPanthersGo23 on Dec 14, 2011 18:37:38 GMT -6
Love this teams fight....they were down and seemed out in the first half and it seemed no one had any energy or fight. It was tough defense and finally some shots that went in that got us going. There were 3 game-changing plays IMO: 1) Bergerren's 3 at the shot clock buzzer. UW ran a high pick and roll with Taylor and Bergerren (if I remember correctly) both Kaylon and James went with Taylor and Ryan Allen rotated off of his guy nicely to cover Bergerren on the arc. It seemed though that Ryan slipped and really didn't get a hand up. 2) Haarsma's blocking foul 'call' in the 2nd half that got him his 4th foul. That was one of the worst calls I have seen this season. I was right there to see it in the 1st row students and there is no way you can tell me that James wasn't there, standing straight up and outside of the no charge circle. James flat out got ran over and it was a foul on him? 3) Jordan Taylor's cold blooded 3...nothing Ryan could really do about it. That's Taylor's shot and if you play too far up on him, he will have a step and possibly drive by Allen.
Overall, I am disappointed in the outcome...but not in our guys fight and heart. This game will definitely help us moving forward. Special mention to Christian Wolf who played a heck of a defensive game when he was on Bergerren and he wasn't afraid to be physical and box out.
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