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Post by thepantherfan on Nov 9, 2011 1:01:29 GMT -6
Yikes, can we stop acting like Haarsma didn't score 11 points per game 2 years ago in comparable competition? He didn't go up against the likes of Alec Brown, Andrew Smith, Kevin Van Wijk, Ben Averkamp and possibly Eli Holman every game, either. I agree that while James was in the MVC he likely didn’t play against high caliber bigs every single game. However, his sophomore year he did play against some quality front court players in: Matt Howard (non con) 6’8 230 12pts 5reb Adam Koch 6’8 255 12pts 5reb J.T. Durley 6’8 236 11pts 5reb Dinma Odiakosa 6’8 255 13pts 9reb Seth Vandeest 6’11 255 9pts 4reb Kenny Lawson Jr. 6’9 250 13pts 7reb Obviously James didn’t put a drubbing on these guys in every game against them, but I wouldn’t expect him to do that in the Horizon League either, and would argue that he doesn’t have too. James will have a much better group of players around him to do the bulk of the scoring. I’m more concerned about having an experienced division 1 ball player with a high basketball IQ on the floor not turning the ball over or taking bad shots, who is familiar with our offense. A player who by not doing these things, makes our starting line-up better as a whole. I think it’s an interesting idea to not red-shirt J.J., but at what cost? Almost all freshman players, while adapting to division 1 college basketball are bound to make mistakes. If the idea is to use J.J. in defensive situations where James height renders him ineffective, I can’t help but envision J.J. playing 10 -15 minutes a game against players that significantly outmatch him. It’s not necessarily the height or size of the players you outline, it’s the talent. They are all very skillful basketball players, who will likely have a large advantage against J.J. I would hate to see him waste a year of eligibility having to guard the conference elite for only fractions of a game when we are unsure of how effective J.J. would even be against players of that caliber, or if he’d do a markedly better job than an undersized Haarsma. Would it be wiser to have Tony Meier or Kyle Kelm on these bigs? If they get into foul trouble or need a breather, wouldn’t Haggerty or Wolf be able to spell them in a bind? Like you, I think J.J. has unlimited potential, and will have one hell of a career as a Panther. That’s why I’m hesitant on playing him this year. But as always, this is just one man’s opinion. |
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 9, 2011 5:49:46 GMT -6
I don't think there's an easy answer to the question of whether or not to redshirt J.J., but it's worth discussion.
In my opinion, Tony's absence for the first eight to 10 games of the season makes this a bit easier.
At the moment, we're talking about having a post rotation of James, Kyle and Demetrius through the DePaul or UNI game. That's pretty thin.
I would suggest that J.J. will immediately be more effective in the middle than either Hags or Christian.
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Post by uwmbacker24 on Nov 9, 2011 8:03:24 GMT -6
I know this has gotten a bit off topic but I see no way we can redshirt J.J., he is a defensive presence and I like the fact that he can shoot the 3. I would like to see his post moves before saying he could make a difference in the post.
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Nov 9, 2011 8:46:16 GMT -6
If JJ is to redshirt for this season, he can't play this Saturday?
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Post by zvillehaze on Nov 9, 2011 9:08:58 GMT -6
If JJ is to redshirt for this season, he can't play this Saturday? Correct. This is a regular season game, so if he plays, he is no longer eligible to redshirt. Freshmen are allowed to appear in exhibition games and still redshirt. |
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 9, 2011 9:12:46 GMT -6
I know this has gotten a bit off topic but I see no way we can redshirt J.J., he is a defensive presence and I like the fact that he can shoot the 3. I would like to see his post moves before saying he could make a difference in the post. In this case, I don't think the thread has gotten off-topic at all. I think that decisions about rotation, prospective redshirts and playing time far outweigh the opponent in this glorified scrimmage. While some may bellyache about having to play a Division 2 opponent, I think the game gives us an opportunity to figure some things out about ourselves and what we need while Kaylon and Tony are out. Let's get ready for Northern Illinois on the 14th and IUPUI on the 18th and Texas Southern on the 20th and so on. |
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Post by FTA1982 on Nov 9, 2011 10:14:31 GMT -6
If JJ is only going to see limited action this season, you have to redshirt him. I don't want this to be an Anthony Hill situation where he was wasted his Freshman year because they needed the bodies. Imagine Hill on this current roster had he redshirted his freshman year.
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Post by GoPanthers33 on Nov 9, 2011 11:03:38 GMT -6
If JJ is only going to see limited action this season, you have to redshirt him. I don't want this to be an Anthony Hill situation where he was wasted his Freshman year because they needed the bodies. Imagine Hill on this current roster had he redshirted his freshman year. When you put it that way... dayumm... |
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 9, 2011 11:04:30 GMT -6
I think it's an apples-and-oranges comparison in that J.J. is such a factor on the defensive end; Anthony never was.
Ultimately, we're talking about an offensive post and a defensive one; the offensive one takes much longer to develop. This is why Anthony was such an off-the-radar recruit relative to J.J.
J.J is a legitimate 6-foot-10, 235 pounds. This young man would get more than the six minutes a game Anthony received as a freshman. So I think the subject is worthy of debate.
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dutchpthr
Junior
ain't much if it ain't dutch
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Post by dutchpthr on Nov 9, 2011 11:22:56 GMT -6
JJ has to play and has to play right away i think, he has the size to be a factor right away on defense i think, his offense this yr should not be needed that much, i see him right now as a defensive presence and any offense should be looked at like a gift. While i like the new guys, Demetrius and James i don't see how this team would not be better with JJ on floor.
Unless he really feels like he would be better off red-shirting i don't see how you can keep a kid like this off the floor
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Post by JG Panthers on Nov 9, 2011 12:17:40 GMT -6
I think it's an apples-and-oranges comparison in that J.J. is such a factor on the defensive end; Anthony never was. Ultimately, we're talking about an offensive post and a defensive one; the offensive one takes much longer to develop. This is why Anthony was such an off-the-radar recruit relative to J.J. J.J is a legitimate 6-foot-10, 235 pounds. This young man would get more than the six minutes a game Anthony received as a freshman. So I think the subject is worthy of debate. This is really a legitimate point. While I can appreciate the comparison to Anthony Hill because I'm typically more in favor of redshirting guys, if J.J. really is as good on defense as most people are saying he is, he has a place in the rotation. |
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Post by thepantherfan on Nov 9, 2011 15:44:10 GMT -6
I guess my concerns about redshirting J.J. are a result of some assumptions I would have to make that would factor into the decision to play him this year.
1.) I would need to assume that a likely rotation of James, Demetrius, and Kyle would be insufficient on the defensive end during conference play. I would have to assume this without having seen this rotation play against a division 1 opponent.
2.) I would also need to assume, that given my first assumption is correct, J.J. would make a marked improvement to the above rotation defensively. I would also need to assume this without having seen him play against division 1 players.
3.) Now, assuming the above two statements correct, I would now need to assume that the contributions J.J. makes on defense for the 10-15 minutes a game (above and beyond what Haggerty could produce as an alternative), outweighs the net present value of his defensive, and presumably offensive, contributions as a 5th year senior.
Now judging from other comments, it’s clear that most people believe J.J. could make an impact this year on defense. I defer to those opinions, since I have only seen J.J. play against Parkside and am in no position to argue otherwise. So I’m not as concerned about the second assumption anymore, but I still think the first and third assumptions present big unknowns.
I agree with Dylan on this, it’s not an easy decision to make and warrants a discussion.
I think the questions we should be asking are:
Will J.J. be a substantially better defensive player than the alternatives?
Even if J.J. improves the team’s defense (which I’m thinking he would), will playing him win games that wouldn’t otherwise have been won?
If so, do the extra wins this year justify future wins lost as a result of not redshirting him?
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Post by uwmbacker24 on Nov 9, 2011 16:03:13 GMT -6
I like Haggerty as a spark off the bench but he hasnt progressed at all in his time here, he is the same player he was when he was a freshman, I dont think we can rely on him to improve this year. If Haggerty gets better of course red shirt JJ but I dont see it happening.
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Post by JG Panthers on Nov 9, 2011 16:07:56 GMT -6
3.) Now, assuming the above two statements correct, I would now need to assume that the contributions J.J. makes on defense for the 10-15 minutes a game (above and beyond what Haggerty could produce as an alternative), outweighs the net present value of his defensive, and presumably offensive, contributions as a 5th year senior. This is EXACTLY right. It may be hard to quantify, but I question whether it will be the difference in a win or loss. If it is the difference, then by all means, play him. If not, don't waste the year of eligibility. |
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Post by Super King on Nov 9, 2011 16:45:16 GMT -6
I think it's an apples-and-oranges comparison in that J.J. is such a factor on the defensive end; Anthony never was. Ultimately, we're talking about an offensive post and a defensive one; the offensive one takes much longer to develop. This is why Anthony was such an off-the-radar recruit relative to J.J. J.J is a legitimate 6-foot-10, 235 pounds. This young man would get more than the six minutes a game Anthony received as a freshman. So I think the subject is worthy of debate. This is really a legitimate point. While I can appreciate the comparison to Anthony Hill because I'm typically more in favor of redshirting guys, if J.J. really is as good on defense as most people are saying he is, he has a place in the rotation. If we don't need him, there's no point. If post defense turns out to be a liability, then he's an option. But to me he's still more of a last resort. When Meier gets healthy we'll have four frontcourt players -- Tony, James, Kyle, and Demetrius -- all vying for minutes. It'll be really difficult to find time for Panoske, and if he's only going to play 5-7 minutes there's no point. If all you want is a big body on defense, then Christian Wolf is available. |
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