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Post by Big D on Mar 19, 2005 15:18:54 GMT -6
Krazie,
They are both criminals and they both committed crimes. Ed's crime was a big deal according to NU, as he was removed from the team. So, even though it's bad enough to cause removal from one team, it's perfectly OK for Bruce to bring him aboard, no questions asked, just because he played a semester in JUCO?
I understand he stayed out of trouble, and I'm sure McGee did too after his situation....where this good behavior happened does not matter in my eyes.
I agree that McGee is a non-issue, although there is a slim possibility he will be back. However, this is more of a Jimmy/Bruce discussion, and I feel Jimmy gets a bad rap from you guys while you just look past what Bruce has done....
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Womack
Freshman
Second best is the first loser
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Post by Womack on Mar 19, 2005 15:31:29 GMT -6
One guy got in a fight
One guy raped someone
GEt over it dude....We all know you are super jealous of what we have...WE kicked your ass twice and it would have been three times but your terrible terrible program could not even beat Loyola....
UIC sucks f***in ass..
Your players parents fight at games cause there kid is not getting enough shots and your coach wont shake hands with other coaches...(Not just Bruce) And you guys have players who raped girls
A rape is inexcuseable...NO excuse whatsoever..NONE
UIC is a classless program who is on its way down
Have fun loser
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Post by Big D on Mar 19, 2005 15:37:41 GMT -6
Whatever HL'er....you're one of the main guys who is brainwashed that says Jimmy's wrong and Bruce's right.......and then you come to defend yourself with this trashy post with zero valid arguments...
did Bruce also tell you that the sky is green...because I have news for you....
Of course nobody likes you at the UIC board, but I know people don't like you here either....
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Post by mcdadenets50 on Mar 19, 2005 15:39:15 GMT -6
But like I said on the UIC board, we'll just take it out on his little brother when he suits up (if he does). Wow, not so shockingly pathetic statement. Both Marcus and Sean were at the game on Thursday. Both said they cannot wait to play for UWM. Yes a lot could happen before that time comes, but I'd love to see more McCants here on and off the court. Ed has been nothing but a model student-athlete at UWM. |
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Post by TheGame414 on Mar 20, 2005 3:47:29 GMT -6
Considering he did this in spite of playing under Bruce Pearl, he deserves special kudos.
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Post by uicstomper1 on Mar 20, 2005 4:07:08 GMT -6
Big D is 100 % correct with what he has said on here. For weeks you uwm fans came on uic board and made jimmy out as a horrible guy because he gave a kid a 2nd chance. Well pearl did the same thing, so all I'm asking is for you guys to say you know what we where wrong. Unless you dont believe in 2nd chances.
Also if McCants is such a model citizen now why didnt he learn from the past and put a stop to the champagne lockerroom celebration. He gogt in trouble becuase he did stupid sh*t while being underage and drinking, so why would he want his underage teamates to be potentially put in the same situation.
On a final note congrats on your win today, enjoy it while it lasts because the ILllini are going to smoke you
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Post by dunzz on Mar 20, 2005 19:21:26 GMT -6
This has to stop...... I just got back from Ohio and i gotta speak out about this.
First of all, the uic fans still have not given us a clear reason why battery is remotly close to rape. Give me one. Go over what everyone else has already said an adress this issue. Would you please give me some sort of analysis why rape and battery are similar to their crime. Second of all, in the court of law those things are different. Ed was charge with a misdermeaner and mcgee was charged with a felony. For those who have taken a poly sci class that means McGee would have faced one year in jail had the girl testified and possibley more. Placed on a sexually violent list and would of been black listed from most jobs and schools. That is the system. Im not here to argue the validity oif the justice system but had Mcgee not gotten off easy he would of most likly needed someone to pull for him. Additionally, if you ask most people, they would rather be beaten up than raped. Most people would rather hang out with someone who got into a drunk fight with someone rather someone who raped a female. NOw i ask you, would you rather get into a drunk fight or get raped? More importantly, if you could choose between the two, would you rather be a rapist or someone who got into a fight or raped someone. If you can answer that question you have already determined the differences between Ed and McGee.
Also if McCants is such a model citizen now why didnt he learn from the past and put a stop to the champagne lockerroom celebration. He gogt in trouble becuase he did stupid sh*t while being underage and drinking, so why would he want his underage teamates to be potentially put in the same situation.
He was prolly doing the press confrence. That is the biggest peice of speculation ive ever read. that is the weakest arguement someone has posted on this baord. more importantly, the celebration was in no violation of any rules and no one was put in trouble except from the coach. Keep whinning. If you cant trust college students with alchol you should become a morman.
Big D is 100 % correct with what he has said on here. For weeks you uwm fans came on uic board and made jimmy out as a horrible guy because he gave a kid a 2nd chance. Well pearl did the same thing, so all I'm asking is for you guys to say you know what we where wrong. Unless you dont believe in 2nd chances.
Great analysis. I agree with what he said. So you should answer the same question. McGee is a horrible person. Thats why he gets so much crap. He is a rapist. We will call him a rapist bc that is what he is if you have a problem with it boo hoo for you. It shows a testimate to your Character and to UIC and what they will tolerate. You guys will support and tolerate a rapist. I would rather support someone who got into a drunken fight than rape. Now you testifye to this board. Would you rather support Ed for getting into a fight or would you rather support a rapist.
Now on to this second chance sh*t. YOu defending McGee at this junction is very null. First of all, lets say that McGee warrents a second chance. What will he do with it. Nothing! He droped off the team, skiped out. It looks like this second chance did nothing. Which means, the second chance was wasted by McGee. Now look at Ed's second chance. He ended up at UWM, graduated with a degree in pyschology and was the player of the year, all new comer of the year, and played on a sweet 16 team. You tell me who deserves a second chance. You tell me who took their second chance and made something of it. Time is already against you. Your arguement that he deserves a second chance is mute. Ed pulled a 180 and Mcgee has acomplished nothing. Now tell me if the second chance was worth it? The difference between the two players warrents enough analysis that McGee got lucky with Jimmy and he still blew it.
Whatever HL'er....you're one of the main guys who is brainwashed that says Jimmy's wrong and Bruce's right.......and then you come to defend yourself with this trashy post with zero valid arguments...
uhhhh, such a strong argument. "Youre brainwashed" look at yourself. youre supporting a second chance for a rapist that didnt work out. Youre asking for us to change our minds. Hello, your guy is gone.
In conclusion, the question now is not weather or not jimmy should of gave him a second chance. the question is did McGee get a really really good oppertunity and waste it. Im sure everyone has already signed their ballot. Thats the right argument.
Your arguments do not match up the defining paremiters of rape and battery. In your case, were suppose to say that McGee deserves a second chance from jimmy bc ed got into a fight when he was drunk. Or, were suppose to say that Ed did not deserve a second chance cuz hes just as bad as McGee. But if you take a survey or look at the laws of this society you will see that Ed and McGee are not on the same page in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of this board and others.
Now lets look at this with rational logic. The board can not make decisions for UIC and we have to live what Jimmy does for the team. OUr discourse on this board has no real impact in the real world except for your in guilty little minds for supporting a rapist. However i will tell you this, Jimmy recruited a guy who was going to called out during games. I doubt that he thought he was going to able to play him with out WI kids knowing about what he was doing and chanting about it at games. Further more, he was at a game where UWM students chanted rapist in front of, the tv, UIC fans, and others. Disclosing what McGee was to a large auidence. Jimmy still played him. Im not saying its wrong nor i will say its right. But it says alot about Jimmys characters and what UIC is wiling tolerate for basketball. UIC says they are giving him a second chance, but i say they have a rapist on their basketball team. IM guessing your responce would have been. McGee did something bad but he can make amends. But heres the facts. He quit. He threw out his second chance. and that will cause trash talk. Youre not educating anyone here. You are trying to tell us that rape and drunken fighting are the same. They are not. Look up the definitions. You will see different things.
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Post by Big D on Mar 20, 2005 19:50:27 GMT -6
Dunzz...honestly, what in the hell are you talking about? You are arguing everything except for what I'm trying to argue.
*I'm not trying to argue that rape is better than battery. I have clearly stated that rape is worse, in my opinion.
*I'm not trying to argue that McCants didn't deserve a second chance. I have said I agree with this giving of second chances.
I'm trying to argue that there is no line drawn which says one player deserves a second chance while another player does not. You guys believe there is a line...that line being "you deserve a second chance if you've committed battery, but if you've committed the lowest degree of rape, you're not allowed a second chance." Note I'm clearly not sticking up for McGee's actions, but it could've been way worse. Now, I'd like to know if this rule is in some UWM handbook or NCAA rulebook or something, because I don't understand how some (most) UWM fans can take the stance that Jimmy Collins is immoral for giving McGee a second chance, but Bruce Pearl was totally right in giving McCants a second chance. They're both criminals....so why is the line drawn where you draw it?
As for the law, hey it worked out how it worked out. If McGee got off "easy," then he got off "easy". Just because you think he deserves worse, doesn't mean anything. The girl didn't want to testify....for whatever reason....that's that.
What is with this response from the UWM fans....this is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't care what happened after they were given a second chance. My argument is why is Jimmy wrong, but Bruce right? I think you need to reread the posts. Sure, McGee may have blown his second chance, but what does this have to do with him deserving the opportunity?
No, this is not the right argument, because what you guys have done all year is bash Jimmy for giving McGee a second chance while in the back of your mind you knew Pearl gave Ed "The Criminal" McCants a second chance. And now I want to hear one of those bashers admit that Bruce is no better than Jimmy, and if he is, why, and where is the line drawn...and why is it drawn there? Nobody has answered this yet. You're just blinded by your success...willing to look past the criminal activity of your team since they've taken you to the top of the HL and to the Sweet 16.
It seems to me that everything is OK, because it's UWM, but you'd be the first to jump on other teams for doing something similar. Anyway, if you 100% condone the recruitment of someone who beats up on elderly people, that's your problem.
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Post by UWMKrazie on Mar 20, 2005 20:07:57 GMT -6
I'll tell you where the line is drawn. It was drawn when Bruce WAS NOT the person to immediately pick up Ed after he was at Northwestern. Jimmy DID pick up McGee immediately following his dismissal from Wisc. Had Bruce picked up Ed right after NW, then maybe you'd have an argument...but sorry. I don't think this "Line" gets any more clear. All you are looking for is us to give our "OK" to you so you feel justified for havign McGee on your team.
End of topic, props to Dunzz for his rant. Nick...end this sh*t officially!
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Post by Big D on Mar 20, 2005 20:10:19 GMT -6
I'll tell you where the line is drawn. It was drawn when Bruce WAS NOT the person to immediately pick up Ed after he was at Northwestern. Jimmy DID pick up McGee immediately following his dismissal from Wisc. Had Bruce picked up Ed right after NW, then maybe you'd have an argument...but sorry. I don't think this "Line" gets any more clear. All you are looking for is us to give our "OK" to you so you feel justified for havign McGee on your team. End of topic, props to Dunzz for his rant. Nick...end this sh*t officially! To me it sounds like you're deciding what the line is just to justify McCants being on your team. What you said mean nothing as I said in previous posts. He went to JUCO for one semester and behaved well...McGee never enrolled at Wisconsin and got in no trouble since....what's the difference? |
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Post by dunzz on Mar 20, 2005 20:17:13 GMT -6
Note I'm clearly not sticking up for McGee's actions, but it could've been way worse.
answer the true question. What was worse. Thats a classic responce. She got raped. but it could of been worse. That determines alot about your character and how you rep your school.
*I'm not trying to argue that rape is better than battery. I have clearly stated that rape is worse, in my opinion.
If rape is way worse than McGee will receaive different treatment from observers of the game. This is the linch pin of the argument. If mcgee was worse, then that means that man recruiting him picked up the worse of two evils. Which means that the person who was recruiting him will receave different treatment than bruce. Right there you answer your own question about the line. People who committ bigger crimes more taboo crimes will receiave different treatment to those who commited lesser crimes. Thus, Jimmy and bruce will be treated differently weather you think its right or not.
I don't understand how some (most) UWM fans can take the stance that Jimmy Collins is immoral for giving McGee a second chance
Look back, people questioned McGee's character. His character reflects the type of person if you agree that rape is horrible then you must have some feelings that his character is shakey. When he came to UIC there was no real facts or evidence that his character was changed or he was deserving of a second chance. He was a guy who got picked up by the luck of his basketball skills. This reflects on Jimmy as a coach, he picked up a rapist. That is the simple fact. Jimmy picked up a rapist. Thats why people were talking about. If you cant take the oppinons of someone calling that immoral then you really arent cut out for the world. Bc there are alot of grey issues to argue over.
but the true question is, are bruce and jimmy on the same page with recruiting "criminals"
What is with this response from the UWM fans....this is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't care what happened after they were given a second chance. My argument is why is Jimmy wrong, but Bruce right? I think you need to reread the posts. Sure, McGee may have blown his second chance, but what does this have to do with him deserving the opportunity?
This is the result of the two players. The result of the second chances. The cold hard facts between ed and mcgee. Ed has proven why he deserved his second chance. McGee has not proven. Getting a second is only as good as the person making good during their second chance. I want you to focus on why the second chance was a bad idea. that being, McGee wasted it. Which goes to show, he didnt deserve his second chance. Second chances are only worth it if the person uses it to its full potential.
No, this is not the right argument, because what you guys have done all year is bash Jimmy for giving McGee a second chance while in the back of your mind you knew Pearl gave Ed "The Criminal" McCants a second chance. And now I want to hear one of those bashers admit that Bruce is no better than Jimmy, and if he is, why, and where is the line drawn...and why is it drawn there? Nobody has answered this yet. You're just blinded by your success...willing to look past the criminal activity of your team since they've taken you to the top of the HL and to the Sweet
I said the same thing ive said all year about Jimmy. He has a rapist playing on his team. There was no UWM prapaganda behind it. I put all the immoral discourse on the fans for supporting him, and on mcgee himself. Criminal activity. It was a drunk fight. You already agreed that rape is worse than a drunken fight. Can you please point out anywhere in my post where i stated anything about success of the team or the sweet 16 i didnt. i kept my post clearly on the arguements of the discussion. The only sucess i talked about was Ed doing well in the HL and recieaving his acolades as a judge of character.
It seems to me that everything is OK, because it's UWM, but you'd be the first to jump on other teams for doing something similar. Anyway, if you 100% condone the recruitment of someone who beats up on elderly people, that's your problem.
This is the first of my knowledge about this subject. I was just as worride as you were. This is a serious issue and it deserves its respect. But since i have the ability to evaluate Ed and Bruce on their decision i can say i would justifye Ed's coming to UWM. first of all, your impact debate is what you really need to worry about. Your asking us not to talk sh*t about jimmy bc bruce is just as worse. But the fact is the impact of Jimmys recruiting is different than Bruces. Youve already conceded the impact debate here. You said rape was worse. Which means, different standards apply to ed and Bruce. In the end, you support a coach that recruited a rapist. I support a coach who recruited a kid who got into a drunken fight. For some odd reason i think people would agree with me that those two are different situations.
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Post by dunzz on Mar 20, 2005 20:19:24 GMT -6
i must go now. things to do. people to see. before i go i will put up some pictures of the Cleavland Conqueskado'rs
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Post by Spike1057 on Mar 20, 2005 20:24:55 GMT -6
That is the sickest sh*t I ever heard what kind of person beats up an elderly couple. I could understand if its a drunken bar brawl. But for myself and probably most on this board we were taught not to hit a female, and if this is true than ed is as big of an a$$whole as McGee is. That just really makes me sick to read something like that.
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Post by Big D on Mar 20, 2005 20:29:24 GMT -6
It's clear we're going to agree to disagree. Yes, rape is worse (how many times do I have to say it)...that's not the point...
it's funny...while UWM fans think that it's totally wrong to have a rapist on the team, no UWM fans think it's wrong to have a person who beats up the elderly on their team....yet, UIC fans think that this is a problem. Why is that?
I really think the whole thing about "McCants made the most of his second chance while McGee did not" does not have anything to do with my argument....I say good for McCants and bad for McGee...looks like he may have messed up again....but that has nothing to do with Jimmy deciding to give him a second chance....which is what UWM fans had a problem with. Now I'm telling you that Brucey isn't so innocent....he's also tapped into the criminal recruit pond.....
I know you're not going to see it my way and that's too bad. I still don't see why the line is drawn where you draw it....the only explanation is that it's UWM....
And by the way, while I support giving second chances, I didn't agree 100% with Jimmy giving one to McGee....and he almost didn't. He wanted to wait to see how things turned out law-wise, and based on the results, he felt he deserved a second shot...so I supported it. However, you guys were completely against it....but have no problem with Bruce. What if your everybody on your team had been previously charged with battery? Would this be a problem.....?
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Post by dunzz on Mar 20, 2005 20:38:11 GMT -6
what if.........
i would be singing a different tune. We are agreeing to disagree but you are supporting a person who took a second chance on a rapist and failed.
My line comes from this. It is different rehabilitating a person who got drunk and beat someone up versus rehabilitating someone who raped a female. Thats difference. Like i said before, since time is on my side i can make the decsion that peral made the right choice. Ed's success on and off the court is a testimate to the difference between bruce and jimmy. Thats it. Those are the statements and facts i will make about the recruiting between the two coaches. I will tell you now, i would have been shakey on ed mccants had we of known this. I would of spoken about this with pearl and ed himself. Deep down in my heart, i was hoping mcgee would of taken this chance and full filled it. Bc the rape charge will fallow mcgee in his future, and his falling out of UIC only hurt him.
Bruce took a risk on Ed. Jimmy took a greater risk on McGee. IN the end, Bruces decision turned out for the best. Jimmys decision not so succesfull. Those are the facts im stating.
Since you say you are all for second chances. You can not say that Bruce was wrong. It would go against your own principles and your defense of mcgee. Therefore its your duty to give Bruce your confidence in this matter. If fans find Jimmy immoral your position should be. Bruce made a similar decision as jimmy. Bruce made it work, and set a model for future players to come through with bad records. That would be the more positive attitude and model to set. If you are all for second chances this is your oppertunity to show how they worked.
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