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Post by PantherU on Jul 16, 2012 18:50:40 GMT -6
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Post by PANTHERfan on Jul 17, 2012 11:44:31 GMT -6
Interesting article that does give a little glimmer of hope ---- and I'll underscore little.
I do take some issue with calling Panther fans fickle. That may have been true 6 years ago when most casual fans, students included, jumped ship when it was apparent that the Sweet 16 magic had left the building. But a couple thousand reliable and passionate fans stuck around through the downs. And more have showed up in the last two years. But now we're about to test the mettle of the most die hards --- the couple thousand that stuck around, many of which have already been through the KC experience. Sadly, my group of 4 season ticket holders of 7 years looks to be down to one (me) as a result of this move. And I can't say I blame them. As this article states, fan experience is a very important factor. I can guarantee that most of my group would not have ever signed up for season tickets in the first place had it not been for the Cell as a venue.
I've been thinking for a while about what it is that's so fundamentally confounding about the move back to the KC --- beyond all the obvious stuff that's been said: small capacity, inadequate accommodations, zero reasonably walkable pre/post game venues, the fact that this has been done before to woeful results, etc.
I think what it comes down to is knowing that no matter what's done to "enhance" the KC, it's an unfixable venue. The problems are 100% structural and they aren't going to ever get better without substantial investment. It seems to boil down to a few key physical/psychological issues:
1. How people enter the stands: With access coming from the court level, all fans are forced to walk from the low point, in front and around the entire court. This couldn't be a more high school experience. It might be forgivable during a big game with an engaged sold-out crowd. But we all know what this will look like in reality. There are 2,500 fairly interested fans at a typical game, with students and kids now roaming court side while they look at their phones in a daze. A legit D-1 basketball experience?
2. The arena sits within a larger volume: It's clear that the KC is meant for much more than basketball games, and that really detracts from the big-time feel. The court essentially floats within the space making it feel rather temporary. This again harkens back to the high school experience of a gym with an adjacent elevated weight room. Maybe enhanced lighting would help this issue (that's another item needing a hard look)?
3. No sense of arrival: You enter the KC as if you're entering a poorly designed office building. The route to the gym is convoluted, without ceremony or a sense of place. From Jimmy's article, it sounds like this is being thought about. Though I don't see how you do it effectively without substantial investment.
All of the above might be forgivable if there was a light at the end of this tunnel. But that's the thing. A new on-campus arena is nothing but talk and maybes right now (at best it's many years out from being reality). In the end, that's what may be the most frustrating. We're going into this experiment with no clear sense of an exit plan. If there is one, it hasn't been conveyed to the fans.
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Post by kingsteve on Jul 17, 2012 12:54:25 GMT -6
Well said. There seems to be a disconnect here. We are saving $230,000 a year. When you look at potentially lower revenue though combined with the cost of all the various improvements such as scoreboard, bleacher backs, concessions, paint, and other things this money can be eaten up rather quickly. In the meantime we have a D 3 venue even after the improvements and certainly does not enhance the image or stature of the program. The key is ...what is the master plan or exit plan if you will??? With the money they are talking about sinking into the KC sounding more and more like this could be an interim and depressingly long interim experience. I would feel a lot better if after say this year we have clear idea this is temporary. I will suck it up for one year and renew my season tickets, Panther Fund etc but if this is looking like there is no means to a better end after a year I am done frankly. Sort of disgusted frankly with everything now with our formerly exciting mens program but if this is truly temporary and somehow serves its purpose but not going to endlessly commit to this subpar experience without that assurance. Come on UWM...tell us something...
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Jul 17, 2012 13:09:56 GMT -6
I will still be getting my season-tickets for two main reasons, I support the Panthers and the tickets are dirt cheap for Milwaukee Panther games.
Looking forward to the new stuff at the KC.
Side note, it's more like $500,000 per year they are saving.
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Post by DunneDeal on Jul 18, 2012 7:04:42 GMT -6
kingsteve I think they the AD is using that $25 dollar increase in student fees they have been saving over the past year and half for the improvements to the KC. Now I could be wrong, but I think that would be a logical use of that money.
So you are still saving the rent costs, plus you're going to be adding Parking (if they get a cut), concessions, and ticket revenue. So there is still a means of savings.
The KC isn't the best but its home.
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Post by freshmilwaukee on Jul 18, 2012 8:04:42 GMT -6
Dunne,
The only problem with using the increased student fee was the intent of the student fee. The intent for that student fee was to accumulate $10M for bonding for the new arena. On top of that if I recall correctly there has been an increase in student fee since the initial increase??? At the end of the day we are putting a band-aid on a really bad venue anyway.
By not providing a plan (there are many of them, pick one for goodness sake) to the fans it is creating more animosity and angst than anything. It is frustrating knowing how successful we could be with the correct support. With this half-ass support the program will continue to flounder and be a challenging point for all of us.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Jul 18, 2012 8:52:30 GMT -6
Interesting article that does give a little glimmer of hope ---- and I'll underscore little. I do take some issue with calling Panther fans fickle. That may have been true 6 years ago when most casual fans, students included, jumped ship when it was apparent that the Sweet 16 magic had left the building. But a couple thousand reliable and passionate fans stuck around through the downs. And more have showed up in the last two years. But now we're about to test the mettle of the most die hards --- the couple thousand that stuck around, many of which have already been through the KC experience. Sadly, my group of 4 season ticket holders of 7 years looks to be down to one (me) as a result of this move. And I can't say I blame them. As this article states, fan experience is a very important factor. I can guarantee that most of my group would not have ever signed up for season tickets in the first place had it not been for the Cell as a venue. I've been thinking for a while about what it is that's so fundamentally confounding about the move back to the KC --- beyond all the obvious stuff that's been said: small capacity, inadequate accommodations, zero reasonably walkable pre/post game venues, the fact that this has been done before to woeful results, etc. I think what it comes down to is knowing that no matter what's done to "enhance" the KC, it's an unfixable venue. The problems are 100% structural and they aren't going to ever get better without substantial investment. It seems to boil down to a few key physical/psychological issues: 1. How people enter the stands: With access coming from the court level, all fans are forced to walk from the low point, in front and around the entire court. This couldn't be a more high school experience. It might be forgivable during a big game with an engaged sold-out crowd. But we all know what this will look like in reality. There are 2,500 fairly interested fans at a typical game, with students and kids now roaming court side while they look at their phones in a daze. A legit D-1 basketball experience? 2. The arena sits within a larger volume: It's clear that the KC is meant for much more than basketball games, and that really detracts from the big-time feel. The court essentially floats within the space making it feel rather temporary. This again harkens back to the high school experience of a gym with an adjacent elevated weight room. Maybe enhanced lighting would help this issue (that's another item needing a hard look)? 3. No sense of arrival: You enter the KC as if you're entering a poorly designed office building. The route to the gym is convoluted, without ceremony or a sense of place. From Jimmy's article, it sounds like this is being thought about. Though I don't see how you do it effectively without substantial investment. All of the above might be forgivable if there was a light at the end of this tunnel. But that's the thing. A new on-campus arena is nothing but talk and maybes right now (at best it's many years out from being reality). In the end, that's what may be the most frustrating. We're going into this experiment with no clear sense of an exit plan. If there is one, it hasn't been conveyed to the fans. This is exceptionally well-stated. In fact, I feel it's one of the best posts I've read here. Of course, I'll be there even if the games are held on the courts outside the dorms or Engelmann Gym (so long as I have a place to sit and rest my back). I realize that doesn't remotely apply to everyone. |
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Post by kingsteve on Jul 18, 2012 8:57:23 GMT -6
Fresh Milwaukee. You hit nail on the head. As a die-hard even I am struggling mightily with this. Really hard to take despite these band-aids it still sucks. I think of walking up to the arena and feeling excitment walking into that venue even if the crowds a bit skimpy although with the average crowd the last half of the season it was not sterile to me, was loud and fun. Grabbing a urger downtown and a drink etc. Walking around the concourse etc...now walk into a high school gym with lipstick on it. awful...basically I will renew my two season tickets this year but bet a lot of the less die hard types that went to the arena will not. I will likely renew year after year but man I am going to be ornery and irritated underneath without a defined plan for a new facility coming. Really hard to take after success we had...now, if there was an actual clear master plan...my God,,, how many have there been and all the back and forth about what we want to be!!!! If this is the new model then just level with us and tell us. If it is for a convocation center that would be awesome but please tell us. Right now it feels like they do not yet once again know what they want to be and figuring out as they go with every possibility to make this KC thing permanent. I still think a lot of cost involved as they are talking about improving locker rooms, reception rooms etc.... I also thought the segragated fee was toward a new arena....it all comes down to communication which has been beyond horrible. What is the darn plan?? Tell us and if it is definitely an interim on way to new arena it is seasheels and balloons. If it is continued ambiguity then even a diehard's patience has its limits. Ok. ok.. I will always go regardless but this is not going to attract a lot of alumni or general basketball fans to go ....they better depend on the students turning out to the tune of 2-000 ti 3,000 per game..to fill the place...could happen but those are non-paying customers. Would not be surprised to see season ticket base erode to 500 -600 level...unless there is a convocation center commitment communicated and established to attract seat availability down the line or return to NCAA dances....better chance with Butler gone...better to be big fish in small pond I guess...if we get to the dance that changes everything....
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Post by PantherU on Jul 18, 2012 17:29:35 GMT -6
None of the money in the $25 fee is being used to improve the Klotsche. That's in an account gaining interest. They're getting money to improve the Klotsche from that they saved from the $330,000 or so they spent annually in the Cell (plus whatever they'll gain from controlling parking, concessions, etc.).
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Post by Pantherholic on Jul 18, 2012 18:15:42 GMT -6
If people remember Geiger said a bball practice facility is first on the list to relieve some of the congestion the KC experiences currently. Geiger's got A LOT of major issues on his plate so it'll take some time to lay out the plans for what needs to be done.
As for the KC renovations, they're nice but a polished turd is still a turd.
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Post by wauker on Jul 18, 2012 20:18:04 GMT -6
This was definitely not a move to cater to the season tickets holders; it was a move to engage the students of the university. The Panthers need the support from the Milwaukee community, but they need step back and gain the support from their campus community first. The students have always been the main financial contributors to the UWM athletic budget and its nice to see the students are finally going to be able to get their moneys worth out of the basketball games this year. Finally it's going to be convenient for the student body at-large to go to the games, and their presents will definitely give the panther basketball games that college game day atmosphere it was lacking.
Many will argue that the is no proof students will attend the games anyways because their attendance was low in the past, but let’s not forget the student path to the games was more than just inconvenient. Waiting for school buses to take you on a 17 minute ride downtown to empty stadium is less than desirable, it’s a downright buzz kill. Getting back from the games for the students is nothing more than another chore. With limited shuttles the students are forced to fight there way on to the buses for another 17-minute ride back to campus. The student game day experienced at the cell was nothing more than inconvenient.
Let’s look at the positives of the Klotsche Center:
1. Games on campus will be more attractive to a larger student audience and the panthers will play in front a pack house every game.
2.The Athletic Department is saving hundreds of thousands of dollars each year and putting the money back into our campus facilities. The improvements to the Klotsche center will benefits not only the men’s basketball team, but all UWM athletic teams. It will enhance the game experience for Women’s basketball, volleyball, and swimming competitions. Improvements to the center will also benefit intramural and clubs sports for the students.
3. Big games will bring all UWM’s supporters, alumni, and donors back to campus. Visiting the old campus allows people think back to their time in school and get a sense of connection to the current students who walk the very halls they once roamed years ago. A lot great things are happening on the UWM campus it is will be nice to share this with the panther supports.
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Jul 18, 2012 20:57:55 GMT -6
. Games on campus will be more attractive to a larger student audience and the panthers will play in front a pack house every game.
The Panthers had 6 games last season under 3,400. The KC will not be pack for every game.
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Post by uwmplanner on Jul 19, 2012 12:44:57 GMT -6
. Games on campus will be more attractive to a larger student audience and the panthers will play in front a pack house every game. The Panthers had 6 games last season under 3,400. The KC will not be pack for every game. 11/12/11 SOUTHWEST MINNESOTA STATE W 71-65 2246 *1/12/12 WRIGHT STATE W 58-38 2364 12/17/11 NEBRASKA-OMAHA W 86-50 2446 11/20/11 TEXAS SOUTHERN W 73-38 2531 11/18/11 IUPUI W 62-49 3022 *12/3/11 UIC W OT 73-71 3330 *1/31/12 YOUNGSTOWN STATE L 65-73 3372 Here are the games that are under 3,400 from last year. Even when you have a poor crowd at least it will seem like a packed house compared to the Cell. |
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Post by uwmplanner on Jul 19, 2012 13:11:34 GMT -6
Attendence/Games/Per Game Attendance
Total :323,620/91/3,556
Excluding WI, MU or HLT: 271,257/83/3,268
Non-Con: 108,364/34/3,187
Conf: 187,286/53/3,534
Looking back over the past few seasons heading back to 2006-07 you can see we averaged 3,534 for conf games and 3,187 for non-conference games. Looking at that if we can build a raucous, home court advantage for a few years and then move that into a bigger arena that isn't too big for our needs would be ideal.
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Jul 19, 2012 16:36:14 GMT -6
Great info uwmplanner!
I think when people use the term "packed house" you think sold-out event.
The WCD got 250 or 500 tickets for Panthers games. So, Milwaukee will lose that number for their paid crowds.
On the plus side, the UWM ticket office can do many more deals that the middle man (WCD) won't take from them.
** Season-ticket info will be mailed out Monday, July 23rd.***
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