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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Nov 21, 2011 13:15:12 GMT -6
We'd never sell out a 7000-seat arena. Costello's idea with the 5000-seat plan is to create demand, which fuels excitement. This idea doesn't make any sense. You can't create demand by having less of something. Demand is independent of how much is supplied. You can maybe influence the price by having less (less seats to go around=higher price for a seat). How would having a smaller place to play make more people want to come??? Likewise, how does having a bigger arena lessen demand?? When people see anything that has tons of empty seats, it gives the sign that this event is not a big deal. Panthers have never had an average for the regular season of 5,000. So, how can 5,000 be to small? |
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 21, 2011 13:25:33 GMT -6
In 1989-90, the program's last year in Division 2, the Panthers had never averaged 1,000 fans a game.
Should this have prevented them from moving to Division 1?
It's called forward-thinking, fellas. Consider this: under Mike Lovell's plan, there will be hundreds more students living in dorms than ever before within the next five years. Don't you think they'll be looking for something to do?
Milwaukee averaged more than 4,000 fans a game last year in what wasn't universally considered a successful season. What happens when the Panthers knock off a notable non-conference opponent and interest spikes?
Are you going to start turning 2,000 people away for Butler, Green Bay, etc. just to ensure that the building is full for Youngstown and UIC?
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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Nov 21, 2011 14:14:41 GMT -6
It was 3,418 last season for the regular season. 4,154 for the year.
Build it in the plans with room to add seats. If they told me it will be 5,000 or 7,000 I would be fine with it.
The big problem is the parking issue. You don't want your fans driving around the block 20 times and taking 20 minutes to park.
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Post by Hack on Nov 21, 2011 14:20:33 GMT -6
Milwaukee averaged more than 4,000 fans a game last year in what wasn't universally considered a successful season. What happens when the Panthers knock off a notable non-conference opponent and interest spikes? Duh, the answer is obvious. You move the game to the Cell. The goal here is to build an arena so small that you sell out every game and cap your current casual fan base ... or force yourself to play meaningful games at larger venues. The ultimate goal is to make the Cell too small to play games at ... Miller Park anyone? |
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Post by PantherU on Nov 21, 2011 14:48:42 GMT -6
This is the arena the Wave played in yesterday, outside of Kansas City. It was built for $55 million, which included a public ice rink. Obviously, trim that off our arena and something similar could likely be built for about $50 million. 5,800 seats, expandable to 8,000. 25 luxury boxes. 270 club seat. Very, very nice. This is just a sample of what we can get for $40-50 million. architecturalshowcase.com/galleries/project.aspx?id=367A basketball-only arena has shorter sides, so you can expect that if we built such an arena, the amount of seats and suites would be cut down some, as would the overall cost. I don't know by how much; an uneducated guess would be you'd lose two suites on each side, about 400 seats, and maaaaybe a couple million in construction costs. The good news is this arena is attainable for Milwaukee, and addresses more than our gameday concerns. Instead of a public ice rink, the side facility could be used as a practice facility for our men's basketball program. At this point, building a separate men's basketball practice facility away from the other Panther sports teams is essential, in recruiting and in instruction. If that comes in a new arena where the team practices on the court, fine, but the practice facility is needed, pronto. As for the seating in the arena, I'm going to take a look at 2010-11, 2004-05, and 2005-06 and see what we averaged in regular-season games ONLY during those years. Here we go: 2004-05 (12 dates): 4,291 2005-06 (13 dates):4,440 2010-11 (13 dates): 3,418 So, in our history, the team has never come close to averaging 5,000 during the regular season. HOWEVER, here are several games in each season that crossed that threshold: 04-05 Green Bay - 5212 UIC - 6041 Youngstown State - 6455 Butler - 5469 05-06 Green Bay - 5354 Butler - 5512 Loyola - 5133 Wright State - 6637 Youngstown State - 5324 Missouri State - 6660 Detroit - 5206 10-11 Marquette - 7120 This tells me that 5,000 should be close to what we should have, but 5,500 to 6,000 would be best for the program. There are two factors we need to think of for the program in basketball if it moves. Attendance may suffer from the move to the East Side, and attendance may grow from the perception of the "tough ticket." To compare the size to a program we are comparable to, take our friends at Northern Iowa. Their McLeod Center, opened in 2006, seats 7,018 - they, like us, saw the need to go bigger for their "growth" in a new arena. Because they don't host the conference tournament, the Panthers do not have any post-season games in their home to boost attendance numbers. Their numbers: 06-07: 6,298 07-08: 5.096 08-09: 4,212 09-10: Stats are missing 10-11: 4,767 So, guessing that they didn't average much different than the years around 09-10 in that year, we can see that they're getting about 2/3 of their arena full. Once the novelty of the new arena and Sweet 16 wore off, they lost attendance noticeably. Last year, coming off another Sweet 16, they only averaged 4,767. The cost of the McLeod Center? $26 million. For us, we have several differences - our student body and alumni base is much, much larger. We don't have football yet. We are an urban campus that has many pro and college teams with which to compete. So this isn't a perfect comparison. However, we should be looking at this down the road. Do we want to be in the Horizon League forever, with its membership having changed several times since we joined the conference? Do we think student attendance is going to jump or drop off? What about paid attendance? All of these things have to be taken into account. |
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Post by PantherU on Nov 21, 2011 14:50:41 GMT -6
For me, you build a 5500-6,000 seat arena and don't go much bigger than that. A crowd of 4,500 would make the place look full, and that is a very attainable attendance for us.
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Post by jhart05 on Nov 21, 2011 19:46:19 GMT -6
I just have a couple things...
1. You have to find a way to build the new arena on campus. Otherwise, might as well just keep playing at the Mecca then. You put it right in the middle of the vast majority of your current students. Plus, it can’t hurt bringing alumni back to campus. I know I would like to go to a college basketball game on a college campus again. I've heard the argument about "it's not near bars and you won't be able to buy a beer at the game". I mean com'on. Why does everything we do in Wisconsin seemingly have to center around the consumption of alcohol? The land argument thou? Now that I don't have an answer for yet.
2. Follow the Northern Iowa model and build it to seat around 7k. For basketball, build it for where you want to be and should be in the future, not for where you (mostly others) "think" you are now or are going to stay at. You also want it large enough to hold concerts and graduation. Why not just put 7k in there right away and forget about it. Much cheaper doing that from the start than trying to put them in years later.
The worst thing you could do is spend all this money, then have to turn people away because you didn't put in those extra 1,000 seats. Even if you only use those extra seats once every few years for basketball, it will still be worth it in the end.
Look at Gonzaga. 6k seat arena. Sold out every game with season ticket holders and they have a season ticket waiting list. You don’t think they wish they would have put in an extra 1,000. Might have already paid for themselves. Yes, I realize we’re not on their level. But why can’t/shouldn’t that be our goal?
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Post by uwmfutbol on Nov 21, 2011 20:09:04 GMT -6
If the new arena isn't a short walk from the core campus, don't even bother. I'd cap the arena at 6000; it could be many decades before the Panther faithful are consistently bringing in more than 6000. I can only imagine the concept of ticket demand.
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mwu
Sophomore
I am U-Dub U-M
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Post by mwu on Nov 26, 2011 23:01:18 GMT -6
That hockey arena is simply dreadful. If we build some bullsh*t post-modern arena, we will have seriously blundered an enormous opportunity.
Cost is largely dependent on your roof span and how economic your seating bowl design is. This factors in the 2 most costly materials, Steel and Concrete. Extensive site work is right up there for cost too which leads me to...
There are some serious site issues using the proposed norris location, that's why I ruled it out.
As for Seating Capacity and the overall Design I leave you with this quote:
“Make no small plans. They have no Magic to stir Men's blood.”
- Daniel H. Burnham
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mwu
Sophomore
I am U-Dub U-M
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Post by mwu on Nov 26, 2011 23:07:39 GMT -6
I just have a couple things... 2. Follow the Northern Iowa model and build it to seat around 7k. For basketball, build it for where you want to be and should be in the future, not for where you (mostly others) "think" you are now or are going to stay at. You also want it large enough to hold concerts and graduation. Why not just put 7k in there right away and forget about it. Much cheaper doing that from the start than trying to put them in years later. The worst thing you could do is spend all this money, then have to turn people away because you didn't put in those extra 1,000 seats. Even if you only use those extra seats once every few years for basketball, it will still be worth it in the end. Look at Gonzaga. 6k seat arena. Sold out every game with season ticket holders and they have a season ticket waiting list. You don’t think they wish they would have put in an extra 1,000. Might have already paid for themselves. Yes, I realize we’re not on their level. But why can’t/shouldn’t that be our goal? YES |
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Post by PantherU on Nov 27, 2011 1:05:11 GMT -6
I just have a couple things... 1. You have to find a way to build the new arena on campus. Otherwise, might as well just keep playing at the Mecca then. You put it right in the middle of the vast majority of your current students. Plus, it can’t hurt bringing alumni back to campus. I know I would like to go to a college basketball game on a college campus again. I've heard the argument about "it's not near bars and you won't be able to buy a beer at the game". I mean com'on. Why does everything we do in Wisconsin seemingly have to center around the consumption of alcohol? The land argument thou? Now that I don't have an answer for yet. We've been over these two points a million times. I'll tackle the easy one first - beer consumption in the arena. A lot of people believe, because of the policy at Camp Randall and the one at TCF Bank Stadium (recent and public), that alcohol cannot be consumed at on-campus events, including sports. This is simply not true. NCAA rules state that it is up to the university's CEO (President or Chancellor, in our case Mike Lovell) to make a decision on whether or not alcohol should be sold. As for the bars in the area, I would venture a guess that the amount of people staying behind number, at most, at about 400-500. If the Arena's development includes space to accommodate these fans, then no one should be crying. I'd be surprised if it didn't; That said, the arena has two places - on the main footprint and in the corridor between Riverside HS and Cambridge Commons. If it's not there, then the university should seriously consider purchasing the US Cellular Arena - our current seven-year occupation has cost the university a great chunk of money - and if an on-campus arena is impossible, I'd hope that they know that we need to purchase the arena and renovate it to make it our own. 2. Follow the Northern Iowa model and build it to seat around 7k. For basketball, build it for where you want to be and should be in the future, not for where you (mostly others) "think" you are now or are going to stay at. You also want it large enough to hold concerts and graduation. Why not just put 7k in there right away and forget about it. Much cheaper doing that from the start than trying to put them in years later. The worst thing you could do is spend all this money, then have to turn people away because you didn't put in those extra 1,000 seats. Even if you only use those extra seats once every few years for basketball, it will still be worth it in the end. Look at Gonzaga. 6k seat arena. Sold out every game with season ticket holders and they have a season ticket waiting list. You don’t think they wish they would have put in an extra 1,000. Might have already paid for themselves. Yes, I realize we’re not on their level. But why can’t/shouldn’t that be our goal? There's one major difference between us and the Zags, and that is they were always going to average 6,000 and were dumb for not realizing that. However, I do agree that 6-7k is probably where we should be. 5,000 seems too small to do anything with it. But who knows. Let's see what Loyola does with their new, under-5k arena and see what it could be for us. |
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Post by blackcatinorange on Nov 27, 2011 13:57:39 GMT -6
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Post by uwmplanner on Nov 28, 2011 8:04:50 GMT -6
I haven't seen this brought up yet but lets keep in mind that the arena would likely host graduation and potentially other on campus events. I would imagine a big event like graduation would be strongly considered too in the capacity of the arena. I know there is floor seating but I never attended my graduation or anybody else's at the Cell to know what the attendance is like.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 28, 2011 9:37:55 GMT -6
A place the seats around 5,500 might be perfect. Nice place. There are 13,167 students at UALR. Over 30,000 at UWM. The Trojans have been to the NCAA tournament four times, just once since 1990, and have just one tournament victory -- over No. 3-seeded Notre Dame -- coached by Digger Phelps -- 90-83 in 1986. They play in the West Division of the Sun Belt Conference, which has three NCAA tournament victories since 2003, all by Western Kentucky. The Horizon League has 19 wins over the same period, three by Milwaukee. I still think 6,500 would be the sweet spot. |
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Post by uwmplanner on Nov 28, 2011 10:01:56 GMT -6
A place the seats around 5,500 might be perfect. Nice place. There are 13,167 students at UALR. Over 30,000 at UWM. The Trojans have been to the NCAA tournament four times, just once since 1990, and have just one tournament victory -- over No. 3-seeded Notre Dame -- coached by Digger Phelps -- 90-83 in 1986. They play in the West Division of the Sun Belt Conference, which has three NCAA tournament victories since 2003, all by Western Kentucky. The Horizon League has 19 wins over the same period, three by Milwaukee. I still think 6,500 would be the sweet spot. I agree with that. I've always thought the arena should be between 6,000 and 7,000. But make it so the fans are right on top of the action so when there is 3,000 to 4,000 there the place seems loud. |
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