Arena Design Leaked?

[mwu]

Nov 15, 2011 23:56:35 GMT -6 PantherU said:

An arena could be expanded to fit more seats.

This isn't an outdoor sporting venue that you can easily make additions to increase seating. Expanding an indoor arena's capacity is inherently difficult unless it is planned for at the initial design/construction phases. It's much easier to subtract seating, by various means (additional box seats, party decks, concourse expansion, etc.). I would hope that the actual design of our new arena come closer to 56-5800.

For my Thesis I chose the absolute high end of seating capacity because it was more architecturally interesting. I ended up with about 7800 seats. But I designed it in a way where if you were to eliminate the 2 upper decks of seats, you could envision the project still succeeding with the capacity of the lower bowl, about 6300 seats (with plenty of standing room).

We've had the debate on the D-Board time and again about what the capacity of a new arena should be I don't think we really need to revisit the topic. 5-7000 occupancy is optimal.

[PANTHERfan]

I have a hard time mustering much enthusiasm for a 5,000 seat arena. While I understand the rationale completely, I still believe that it's dreaming small. For me it's about looking to what the program can be. And the program has proven that it can sell out a 10,500 seat arena when the games matter the most. Again, I understand that we're typically playing to crowds much, much different than that, but I'm not concerned with the numbers we're playing to to right now. Look back at the Horizon League Championship last season where the student section comprised about 1/4 or the arena, perhaps more than 2,500 students total. A 5,000 seat arena couldn't possibly allow for that scenario to happen as it would make up 1/2 of total seats.

Now, we obviously don't draw 2,500 students per night. However, with a new arena on campus and hopefully sustained success on the court, you could reasonably argue that 1,500 students/game would be attainable. For me I think the Gonzaga model should be what we're after. No fewer than 6,000 seats. I'm uncertain what their student capacity is, but on tv it looks to be in the 1,000 to 2,000 range, and they comprise nearly one half of the court.

As noted, an indoor arena cannot be added on to without tremendous cost, even if planned for. So I for one hope we aim a little higher. A legit program has to have an arena with a big time feel to it. That's why I so enjoy the Cell, for all it's warts. When the place is packed, it's a tremendous environment and a tremendous home court advantage.

[ghostofdylan]

Agree with PANTHERfan.

Don't set your sights low in anything ... on or off the court (more on this later).

Weren't there an all-time-best 3,500 students at last year's championship game? So, that leaves about 1,500 seats for everyone else the next time the Panthers advance that far?

Make it a tough ticket, but not so tough that some who've jumped on board since the Bo Ryan Era can't buy their way in.

[Hack]

Nov 16, 2011 13:38:56 GMT -6 PANTHERfan said:

I have a hard time mustering much enthusiasm for a 5,000 seat arena. While I understand the rationale completely, I still believe that it's dreaming small. For me it's about looking to what the program can be. And the program has proven that it can sell out a 10,500 seat arena when the games matter the most. Again, I understand that we're typically playing to crowds much, much different than that, but I'm not concerned with the numbers we're playing to to right now. Look back at the Horizon League Championship last season where the student section comprised about 1/4 or the arena, perhaps more than 2,500 students total. A 5,000 seat arena couldn't possibly allow for that scenario to happen as it would make up 1/2 of total seats.

Now, we obviously don't draw 2,500 students per night. However, with a new arena on campus and hopefully sustained success on the court, you could reasonably argue that 1,500 students/game would be attainable. For me I think the Gonzaga model should be what we're after. No fewer than 6,000 seats. I'm uncertain what their student capacity is, but on tv it looks to be in the 1,000 to 2,000 range, and they comprise nearly one half of the court.

As noted, an indoor arena cannot be added on to without tremendous cost, even if planned for. So I for one hope we aim a little higher. A legit program has to have an arena with a big time feel to it. That's why I so enjoy the Cell, for all it's warts. When the place is packed, it's a tremendous environment and a tremendous home court advantage.

Agree with this 100%. I understand the logic behind creating a demand for a smaller arena like 5,000. But I also don't want to be in the position of turning fans away routinely (whether they are students or general public) because tickets are sold out or difficult to obtain. Granted, they wouldn't be turned away now ... but we don't want to stay where we're at.

Moving to an on-campus arena, we are undoubtedly going to see a rise in student attendance ... a very good thing. However, I don't want that to take away from our casual fan base, which will always be needed as we fight for this market's attention. We're not at the point to be turning away casual fans.

My ideal capacity is still between 6,000-7,000. Plus, that can also make it a bit more attractive for other non-UWM events (concerts, etc.).

[uwmfansince1997]

I'd like to see something somewhat respectable in size so we could possibly host other indoor events. IE., concert, maybe a NCAA tourney site some day (dreaming), something to possibly help the school stay profitable all year round.

[BBFran]

All things being equal, I would prefer an arena that either has or has the capacity to be expanded to about 7,000 seats. I think that would be enough, maybe even for HLT games, although it's always possible we could still use the Cell for those.

Of course, all things aren't equal. There is a serious money issue (more seats require more dollars, and ANY dollars are hard to raise in this environment). I also wonder whether there is a site issue. The Norris site does not strike me as very conducive to a larger arena. There's just not much space between Klotsche and the old Downer College academic buildings to the south. I was asked to meet with a representative of the "research group" exploring fundraising prospects recently. (It's really just a fundraising pitch itself. I knew it, they knew I knew it. I knew they knew I knew it, etc.) I expressed my concern about the size and the site, but the person I met with really couldn't address those issues. (Again, she's a fundraiser, not an architect.)

As a practical matter, I suspect the site is a closed issue. We all know there's not much space available on campus. The Norris site has the advantage of allowing a connection to the K and the Pavilion, which really is a big advantage from a sports administration standpoint, but to me it's just a little too hidden. If you're looking for a donor to slap enough millions down to put his/her name on a building, I think you'd want a more obvious location. But I don't think site can be changed at this point, so perhaps some clever architecture can increase the building's visibility on campus. But again, I also wonder if this site limits capacity. That's just a guess on my part.

As MWU says, you can reduce seating much easier than increase it. Maybe it's possible to build for 7,000 and only install 5,000 seats for now. I don't know, and I don't know if the savings would even be worth it. You might end up with some wider concourses or something for the time being.

As for whether 7,000 is ultimately too big or not enough, my feeling is that if you build it, they will come. Especially students from the campus neighborhood. But I think we're a ways away from needing more than that on a regular basis.

[PantherU]

For me, and this is what I think the athletic department should go by, is no matter what you do, you have to be sure that your project is satisfying to all facets of the program's fan base.

1. This is paid for largely by the students, and the students should be catered to. The location of the Norris center is important, but you also want the student section to be designed for maximum ability to mess with the other team. Guarantee full areas behind the basket by raising it above the court like the Al McGuire Center and put them on both ends of the basket - paying customers don't like end zone seats anyways.

2. Those paying customers need to be catered to as well. This means that despite the extra parking in the Pavilion (700 spots) and the hospital garage (900 spots), we need to have a great number of additional parking spots for fans going to games. I propose going underground lot between Enderis and Chapman, or having extra parking in the building. The latter is preferable; if fans have to spend zero time outside, the better it is for our program in January and February.

3. The amenities have to be there as well. You need the stuff to get the people in Brookfield and Racine excited about coming up for the game. You need restaurants, retail space, the Hall of Fame, etc. for the fans to spend their time and money. It's all about making the games an event, and many fans need more than just the game to justify driving 20-25 miles to campus.

[Super King]

Things to keep in mind:

Student attendance at games at the Klotsche is lousy. Also, shuttles from the dorms are free. And yet student attendance at the Cell is also lousy 90% of the time. Just because an arena is on-campus doesn't mean our student base will go to games, because they can always drink.

The arena will cost somewhere between $40 and $65 million. An increase in segregated fees is likely necessary to cover this cost, and the rest will come from our generous, famous, and substantial alumni base ha ha ha

The more seats you put in the arena, the more expensive it will get.

In the greatest years the program has ever seen the Cell has been 75% empty. Our attendance last year was around 2,000 people per game, and for this year even with the season ticket bump will probably rarely exceed 2,500. We are not Marquette, we are not Madison; we will not generate enough buzz, through the aid of media or otherwise, to regularly sell out even half of a 7,000-seat arena. As it is, we will have difficulty selling out half of our 5,000 seat plan. Milwaukee is absolutely saturated with sports, and our status as the second-tier basketball team in the city, let alone to Marquette, among the nation's leaders in average attendance, does not help our cause. There is nothing realistic, pragmatic, or logical about building a 7000-seat arena for this university, and that's all there is to it.

[Pounce Needs Pals]

I think building an arena that seats over 5,000 is the way to go. Why have it bigger, so we can always look at those empty seats. VCU, has a nice looking 5,000 seat arena and it's filled and looks great on TV. Hosting the HL toury should not be a factor in how many seats you should have in your new arena. Heck, we could use the BC or the Cell.

I would hope the new arena would have a nice video board that can have many stats and scores.

[illwauk]

Wasn't sure where to mention this, so I'm doing it here. A guy at another board I frequent was talking about how he stayed in the Convocation Center (basketball arena) while he was at Ohio University... as in they actually had student housing built into the arena when they renovated it. Apparently the dorms were soundproofed to where he couldn't tell whether a game was going on or not. Sounds like a good idea for our arena, especially with Lovell's plans for freshmen and sophomores to live on campus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convocation_Center_%28Ohio_University%29

[ghostofdylan]

Nov 16, 2011 17:00:50 GMT -6 Super King said:

We are not Marquette.

Maybe we should adopt that as our chant?

[PantherU]

Nov 17, 2011 18:16:20 GMT -6 illwauk said:

Wasn't sure where to mention this, so I'm doing it here. A guy at another board I frequent was talking about how he stayed in the Convocation Center (basketball arena) while he was at Ohio University... as in they actually had student housing built into the arena when they renovated it. Apparently the dorms were soundproofed to where he couldn't tell whether a game was going on or not. Sounds like a good idea for our arena, especially with Lovell's plans for freshmen and sophomores to live on campus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convocation_Center_%28Ohio_University%29

This is an excellent idea, but I'm not sure how many student dorms we would be able to fit in such a project.

Akron University has included dorms as a part of Infocision Stadium. The dorms aren't built yet, but they'll act as a horseshoe around the side opposite the grandstand. Something like 2,000 students will be able to walk outside their dorms and into the stadium in under a minute.

To build the stadium (and get the land for the dorms), the university used Eminent Domain to acquire the land.

[PantherLou]

Nov 16, 2011 17:00:50 GMT -6 Super King said:

Things to keep in mind:

Student attendance at games at the Klotsche is lousy. Also, shuttles from the dorms are free. And yet student attendance at the Cell is also lousy 90% of the time. Just because an arena is on-campus doesn't mean our student base will go to games, because they can always drink.

The arena will cost somewhere between $40 and $65 million. An increase in segregated fees is likely necessary to cover this cost, and the rest will come from our generous, famous, and substantial alumni base ha ha ha

The more seats you put in the arena, the more expensive it will get.

In the greatest years the program has ever seen the Cell has been 75% empty. Our attendance last year was around 2,000 people per game, and for this year even with the season ticket bump will probably rarely exceed 2,500. We are not Marquette, we are not Madison; we will not generate enough buzz, through the aid of media or otherwise, to regularly sell out even half of a 7,000-seat arena. As it is, we will have difficulty selling out half of our 5,000 seat plan. Milwaukee is absolutely saturated with sports, and our status as the second-tier basketball team in the city, let alone to Marquette, among the nation's leaders in average attendance, does not help our cause. There is nothing realistic, pragmatic, or logical about building a 7000-seat arena for this university, and that's all there is to it.

If this attitude is shared by those in charge of the university, then we should save the money and simply fold the athletic department.

This is a major urban university with an enrollment of over 30,000 and a local alumni base of well over 100,000. Time to stop acting like we are a low-level program.

If you want to be successful in anything, you need to believe that you are. There's an old saying:

"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."

[A Statement By SHAUN]

Nov 15, 2011 23:02:02 GMT -6 Super King said:

We'd never sell out a 7000-seat arena. Costello's idea with the 5000-seat plan is to create demand, which fuels excitement.

This idea doesn't make any sense. You can't create demand by having less of something. Demand is independent of how much is supplied. You can maybe influence the price by having less (less seats to go around=higher price for a seat). How would having a smaller place to play make more people want to come??? Likewise, how does having a bigger arena lessen demand??

[pnthr97]

This is the arena the Wave played in yesterday, outside of Kansas City. It was built for $55 million, which included a public ice rink. Obviously, trim that off our arena and something similar could likely be built for about $50 million. 5,800 seats, expandable to 8,000. 25 luxury boxes. 270 club seat. Very, very nice. This is just a sample of what we can get for $40-50 million.

architecturalshowcase.com/galleries/project.aspx?id=367