Thoughts after contemplation

[blackcatinorange]

"#11 gives me a Toner......."

[uwmalum2010]

First off, let me introduce myself to the board. Long-time lurker (since about 2005), first time poster.

So proud of this team. I am a first-time season ticket holder this year, and I would have to say this is the best sports investment I've made in a long time ($100 package). And I look forward to renewing for next year. I just wanted to share a few thoughts from Tuesday....

First off, the crowd was spectacular. I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't a true sellout and there were alot of empty seats in the north end. But the students really helped to get that place rockin'. Even when we were down by 10 or more, everyone kept trying to get the team back in the game.

The student section was great too. I especially liked the Charlie Sheen face cutouts with "winning" written on them. I got to the arena early, and watching it continue to fill up brought me back to 2005 and 2006 when I was part of them. Yes, there were the idiots who were yelling during the National Anthem, and that was annoying and disrespectful. But overall they were loud and I hope this experience brings them back next year.

The game...was disappointing. I think it was obvious Butler was the better team that night. I noticed early this year that Milwaukee can get lazy and sloppy with the ball, throwing weak passes. I think that happened, especially trying to get the ball low to Hill. Passes at the feet, etc. And Butler's post players were just too physical and aggressive.

Also the fact that their outside shooting was nowhere to be found. There were sparks at times, but no consistency.

As for the officiating. I think it was poor both ways. I haven't had the time to watch the game on my DVR yet though. That 10-second count was a killer. But I saw it coming when Williams was talking with the covering official, who was blatantly showing his 10-count with his arms. Foolish mistakes like that really hurt.

I read in previous post about how someone said they would like to see non-HL officials for these games. I understand the reasoning, but I also think it probably helps when officials have familiarity with the teams and how they like to run their offenses.

The HL obviously doesn't have the top officials. But think about it from an officials perspective. D-1 officials are looking to continue to move up in the ranks, similar to D-1 coaches. The HL is merely a stepping stone for alot of officials who want to call BCS conference games each night. So the good ones will probably only be around for a few years before they hopefully move on. On occasion you will get an official like Hartzell who is a regular in the B10 but it's just a matter of scheduling. I was going to say that I think the best officiated game this year was against MU which was led by Tim Higgins. And then we see what happened in the St Johns-Rutgers game.

Anyway, I'm still alright and proud with how this season finished. I'm definitely hoping they can string a few wins in the NIT and build some confidence for next year.

Also, I attached a picture I got of the student section. Not the best quality (the corner video boards really hurt with the extra light) but I thought it was a good display of how imposing a full student section can be.

Go Panthers!

Attachments:

[GoPanthers33]

Welcome to the board!

And that is a great pic. It would be so nice to see that on a regular basis... :/

[PantherU]

The only thing that would make that picture better is if it were under Milwaukee Panthers banners.

And Jerm - we can have that...or at least something resembling that...on a regular basis. I refuse to believe that we're destined to an average student section of 300 and a ceiling of 5,300 in the arena.

[Super King]

Mar 12, 2011 17:19:15 GMT -6 PantherU said:

The only thing that would make that picture better is if it were under Milwaukee Panthers banners.

You mean....we're not the Wave?

[mwu]

just needs a simple photoshop edit my friends

[PANTHERfan]

You know, I've changed my tune. I'm no longer satisfied with the thought of a 6000 seat arena... We had 10,400 excited fans there last Tuesday. We had 3,000 students... Nobody in the horizon can even come close that. Let me reiterate, nobody can come close that. Let's not settle. Let's create the best Horizon league environment with what we have.

[mwu]

I would figure we need to be close to 8,000 that way we can still accommodate graduation and larger games/events.

[PantherU]

One possible arena would be 6,000-6,500 seats, with the possibility of spending an extra $5 million later to add a third seating deck and boost it to 8-8.5k.

Personally, I'm not thinking of the conference championship game when I am putting together the arena. I'm thinking of the December home game against Ball State.

I know that you guys want nobody turned away at the gate, but the fact of the matter is you need the basketball game to be a tough ticket. If the capacity is 6,000, people are fighting to get into the arena for even the most menial games, and will be far more likely to buy season tickets to ensure themselves a seat at games against Butler, Wisconsin, Marquette, Green Bay etc.

I think people here don't really get what that entails. You see a 6,000 seat capacity and wonder about all the people that would be at the game if they could.

What that means is there are people outside the arena who want to watch the game. Right now, we've got diehard fans who can't get to the game, but mostly everyone who will go out of their way to watch the Panther games are in the building. If not everyone is able, you have a full arena and can pull a much better television deal; the idea is that if there are people outside who want to watch the games, then TV will get into the arena more often and on a better network.

Having people outside of the game that want to watch the game builds the TV viewing fan base.

[uwmfutbol]

I still think the seating capacity should be right around 6000. Until there's actual demand for these tickets, nothing will change.

[panther44]

Mar 13, 2011 9:35:49 GMT -6 PantherU said:

One possible arena would be 6,000-6,500 seats, with the possibility of spending an extra $5 million later to add a third seating deck and boost it to 8-8.5k.

Personally, I'm not thinking of the conference championship game when I am putting together the arena. I'm thinking of the December home game against Ball State.

I know that you guys want nobody turned away at the gate, but the fact of the matter is you need the basketball game to be a tough ticket. If the capacity is 6,000, people are fighting to get into the arena for even the most menial games, and will be far more likely to buy season tickets to ensure themselves a seat at games against Butler, Wisconsin, Marquette, Green Bay etc.

I think people here don't really get what that entails. You see a 6,000 seat capacity and wonder about all the people that would be at the game if they could.

What that means is there are people outside the arena who want to watch the game. Right now, we've got diehard fans who can't get to the game, but mostly everyone who will go out of their way to watch the Panther games are in the building. If not everyone is able, you have a full arena and can pull a much better television deal; the idea is that if there are people outside who want to watch the games, then TV will get into the arena more often and on a better network.

Having people outside of the game that want to watch the game builds the TV viewing fan base.

+1

[Rawls]

I still think 7-8k is the way to go.

1) More seats to sell. Sometimes we over-think things. More available seats means more $ for the Athletic Department and for UWM.

2) Exclusivity is fine, but it wouldn't come into play too often. Butler may be the only game that any given year we can expect 6k plus in the stands. Besides that, Wisconsin every 5 years, Marquette the same, and the HL tourney are the only times it would matter. Maybe 2 times a year you create exclusivity? For something that seldom, I'll take the guaranteed money now over the potential money down the road.

3) 7-8k makes more noise than 6k, and in those bigger games, noise is a weapon. In my opinion, Butler was better prepared for the noise and aura of Tuesday than we were. It helped them win the game. We need to be able to use that as a weapon ourselves which means more experience in those situations, but also more fans screaming. Along with this, the footprint of a 7-8k arena isn't much different than that of a 6k one. Building size causes that big empty box feeling much more than empty seats, and we can get the same effect either size.

4) Outside events. mwu mentioned graduation, but UWM could also make more money by using the arena to outside events. HS showcases and tournament games, concerts, etc. A bigger arena gives you a better offer to host those events.

5) Prepare like 7-8k won't be a big crowd. If we can string together successful seasons, there's no reason this can't be reality. One of the most disheartening things about Pearl's departure was that it completely stripped the team and its growing fan base looked elsewhere fast. Milwaukee wants to root for the Panthers and our crowd size explodes when there's a great team that people know about. 6k may be that happy point to create exclusivity while making the most people happy now, but if we keep winning it quickly becomes a hindrance. Don't limit your future because of your past.

[mwu]

Mar 13, 2011 14:22:00 GMT -6 Rawls said:

I still think 7-8k is the way to go.

1) More seats to sell. Sometimes we over-think things. More available seats means more $ for the Athletic Department and for UWM.

2) Exclusivity is fine, but it wouldn't come into play too often. Butler may be the only game that any given year we can expect 6k plus in the stands. Besides that, Wisconsin every 5 years, Marquette the same, and the HL tourney are the only times it would matter. Maybe 2 times a year you create exclusivity? For something that seldom, I'll take the guaranteed money now over the potential money down the road.

3) 7-8k makes more noise than 6k, and in those bigger games, noise is a weapon. In my opinion, Butler was better prepared for the noise and aura of Tuesday than we were. It helped them win the game. We need to be able to use that as a weapon ourselves which means more experience in those situations, but also more fans screaming. Along with this, the footprint of a 7-8k arena isn't much different than that of a 6k one. Building size causes that big empty box feeling much more than empty seats, and we can get the same effect either size.

4) Outside events. mwu mentioned graduation, but UWM could also make more money by using the arena to outside events. HS showcases and tournament games, concerts, etc. A bigger arena gives you a better offer to host those events.

5) Prepare like 7-8k won't be a big crowd. If we can string together successful seasons, there's no reason this can't be reality. One of the most disheartening things about Pearl's departure was that it completely stripped the team and its growing fan base looked elsewhere fast. Milwaukee wants to root for the Panthers and our crowd size explodes when there's a great team that people know about. 6k may be that happy point to create exclusivity while making the most people happy now, but if we keep winning it quickly becomes a hindrance. Don't limit your future because of your past.

Truth Spittin'

[uwmalum2010]

One thing I'd like to add RE: Our existing and future fan base.

I would say overall that we have a younger base. Reason I say this is, we've been in D1 for only 20 years. Furthermore, I'm guessing that alot of season ticket holders are there because of the success they experienced as students in 2003-2006, so they are around the age of 30 or so. This gives a great opportunity for ticket holders to bring more family members, and their (future) children to events at a young age, and let them learn to love Milwaukee Basketball.

To all the posters here who also follow UW (including me), it's probably because we were raised by our parents to cheer for UW, since they were the state flagship University. In this spirit, we can raise our future generations to experience and enjoy Milwaukee athletics and continue to follow and support them.

[PantherU]

Mar 13, 2011 14:22:00 GMT -6 Rawls said:

I still think 7-8k is the way to go.

1) More seats to sell. Sometimes we over-think things. More available seats means more $ for the Athletic Department and for UWM.

2) Exclusivity is fine, but it wouldn't come into play too often. Butler may be the only game that any given year we can expect 6k plus in the stands. Besides that, Wisconsin every 5 years, Marquette the same, and the HL tourney are the only times it would matter. Maybe 2 times a year you create exclusivity? For something that seldom, I'll take the guaranteed money now over the potential money down the road.

3) 7-8k makes more noise than 6k, and in those bigger games, noise is a weapon. In my opinion, Butler was better prepared for the noise and aura of Tuesday than we were. It helped them win the game. We need to be able to use that as a weapon ourselves which means more experience in those situations, but also more fans screaming. Along with this, the footprint of a 7-8k arena isn't much different than that of a 6k one. Building size causes that big empty box feeling much more than empty seats, and we can get the same effect either size.

4) Outside events. mwu mentioned graduation, but UWM could also make more money by using the arena to outside events. HS showcases and tournament games, concerts, etc. A bigger arena gives you a better offer to host those events.

5) Prepare like 7-8k won't be a big crowd. If we can string together successful seasons, there's no reason this can't be reality. One of the most disheartening things about Pearl's departure was that it completely stripped the team and its growing fan base looked elsewhere fast. Milwaukee wants to root for the Panthers and our crowd size explodes when there's a great team that people know about. 6k may be that happy point to create exclusivity while making the most people happy now, but if we keep winning it quickly becomes a hindrance. Don't limit your future because of your past.

I'll respond to each, one by one.

1. You say that "Butler may be the only game that any given year we can expect 6k plus in the stands," yet in your first point you contradict that by saying "more people, more seats." That was the kind of thinking that brought us to the Cell in the first place instead of using the goodwill of our first NCAA Tournament to build a replacement for the Klotsche Center. When you talk about 8,000 seats being better because you can fit more than 6,000, you're talking about accommodating everyone. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a 6,000 seat arena for 6,500 fans, forcing 500 to watch on TV, than have 8,000 seats and 6,500 fans so everyone knows exactly how big our fan base is - not enough to fill our own gym. The Panthers could, one day, be a team that will get 8,000 people per game, but it's not today, and it will be fleeting even if it is. Without major conference membership and the name opponents that association brings, Milwaukee's success in the stands will largely depend on its success on the floor. And a refresher - our current ceiling is 5,300 back in 05-06. If it's money that the AD needs, then ticket prices can be raised if 6,000 seats are full.

2. Besides completely contradicting yourself in points 1 and 2, the obvious answer to this is that if you're right, and our team does not pull in a large amount of fans for the majority of its games, than the Panthers will play the majority of their games in an 8,000 seat arena with whatever fans are there. For a game with 3,000 fans, you're talking about an arena that's 35% full compared to a 6,000-seat arena that's 50% full. Forget the exclusivity; every year of our basketball team's history, they have not come close to averaging 8,000. Or even 6,000 for that matter. Assuming that the average game will bring in 2,500 in bad years to 5,000 in good years, the 6,000 seat arena will be far more full than the 8,000 seat arena. I'd rather have a recruit see 2,500 at a nearly half-full arena than 2,500 at a 30% full arena. You can tell the difference; 6,000 will always be fuller, and a better college basketball atmosphere.

3. 8k makes no more noise than 6k, or at the very least the difference is negligible. Tuesday's game had just as much noise as any game in the 17,000 seat Kohl Center. If noise is what you're searching for, in the hunt for a home court advantage, then you should be more interested in the shape of the arena, the height of the ceiling and the placement of the student section. I hate to say it, but our paying customer season-ticket holders act, for the most part, like they're watching interpretive dance - they clap awkwardly, like they might be doing it at the wrong point in the show. More important than anything is getting the alumni and season ticket holders to get up off their asses and really cheer. You don't need to be standing 24/7, but they get out of their seats at halftime and in the last 2 minutes of the game.

4. The events are a perfect reason to have the arena at 6k. The Cell is nearly jam-packed for every graduation, so a 6k arena compared to an 8k arena is nothing; you'd need to do multiple graduations. But for other events, a 6k arena is better. Luckily I've worked in promoting so I have a bit of an idea. At 8,000, a promoter would look at the campus neighborhood, see the size, and say "Why should I be putting this on here when I can get 3k more in the Cell?" The fact of the matter is 8k and 11k arenas will draw the same acts, and you'll be fighting to get the acts you want when the Cell's location and size are better. A 6k arena is significantly smaller, and in Milwaukee, an arena this size doesn't exist. If a promoter isn't very sure of his chances to sell out, he's much more likely to go for the 6k arena than the 8k. And if he's confident he can put 8k in the seats, he'll be confident enough to go for 11k. High school tournaments would be suited for the east side's arena regardless of size, because the current northeast side sectional arena is the Whitefish Bay gym. But in any case, the 6k arena would be better suited, because the high schools aren't going to come close to either number. Showcases, like the one Kyle Kelm's Randolph team played in last year at UWM, can happen in any arena.

5. You really make two points in here; you say that stringing together successful seasons can bring the attendance up to a point where we can average more than 6k, and you also say that in the future, if we build at 6k we could very well fill it up and be looking for more seats. So....

5a. We have strung together several successful seasons. From 02-03 to 05-06, we were the class of the conference. We had Bruce Pearl (until 05) as a wonderful cheerleader for the program, and our attendance was significantly ahead of what it is today. Bruce Pearl was a one-of-a-kind salesman, yet our attendance never quite reached 6,000. It plateaued in Jeter's first year at 5,300, and that was that. The kind of success we'll need to go higher is multiple runs in the NCAA Tournament and a continuation of being a good team. We can market the hell out of it, perhaps even fill the 6k, but it's a mountain to climb and the arena would be rocking even for the worst games on the schedule.

5b. If we get to the future and have more than 6,000 fans who want season-tickets, you know what we create? A waiting list. It's one of the things that fan bases are judged by; if you have trouble getting in the door, you want to be in there more. Conversely, if the arena isn't full, people know it's not what everyone wants to be doing.

Also, as I said before, one of the drawings I've seen is a 6,000 seat arena with the option to spend a little more at a later date to add 2k seats. If we ever get to the point where we want 8,000, we can go with an option like this. If we don't, we'll look much better with crowds in a 6k arena than an 8k arena.

If you're still not convinced, ask the people that will be recruiting players to play in this new arena.