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Post by PantherU on Mar 28, 2022 18:44:14 GMT -6
Note: I put this in its own thread because I wanted to keep threads pertaining to Bart Lundy free of conversation not pertaining to Bart Lundy.I think the mood on the board about the program was less than mediocre at the time. I feel like those saying that range of time was better than mediocre are re-writing history. I think the reason you're thinking that is because you, like many on this board, came to the program at or near the pinnacle. - We have 39 seasons in Division I in two stints, from 1973-74 to 1979-80 and from 1990-91 to the present. - We are 554-595 (1,149 games), a .482 winning percentage. - Of our 39 seasons, 19 of them had a winning record. Of those 19 seasons, six of them came between 2008-09 and 2015-16. - We have ten 20-win seasons. Of those ten seasons, four of them came between 2009-10 and 2015-16. The problem for Jeter wasn't that he was a mediocre coach. The problems were objectively these: 1) he was learning on the job, as you can see by early recruiting woes and a slow but gradual increase in success during a time when Panther fans had no patience and wanted to taste more tournament success as fast as possible. 2) he had a philosophy that emphasized a crescendo into March, which gave us one of the most dangerous Horizon League teams in March but also meant we rested guys who could have played and lost games in the non-conference and early conference schedule that we could have won. This led to his team finishing low enough in the standings that it made making a run in March difficult as well. 3 he suffered from two major administrative mishaps that directly affected his team's record: ... a) 2012-13 when Andy Geiger deflated the program by moving to the Klotsche Center; ......our best recruit was Cody Wichmann ... b) the 2014-15 APR ban that came when academic support and the compliance ......office failed to appeal a winnable case ....... i) Do not forget that the program had, since Rick Costello, pushed the basketball ..........coaching staff out of oversight in player academics. 4) he had the incredible misfortune of running into the greatest mid-major in the history of college hoops in March 2010 & '11 5) he never could quite put it together where he was winning the conference and going dancing. I don't think anyone is rewriting history. I think it's about perspective. BBFran has been around since the 1970's. GhostofDylan has been around since the late 1980's. Their perspective includes watching Steve Antrim run the program he built into the ground through scandal; that was the second time for Fran, who saw Bob Gottlieb knock us out of the NCAA with his own. They watched Ric Cobb flounder about. They saw Bo Ryan leave as soon as his dream job came for him and that meant they valued Jeter's loyalty to the program more than, say, someone who came on board because Bruce Pearl was like the 4th of July in human form and he set up his team for winning basketball when the conference wasn't as good as it was later from 2006-07 to 2010-11 or earlier from 1997-2002. Those numbers are clear; of the Horizon League's 43 years in existence, 2004-05 had the 18th-strongest strength of schedule and 27th strongest rating for the conference. In contrast, 2010-11 had the 6th-strongest SoS and 6th-strongest conference rating. The only tougher year in the Horizon League since we joined the conference was 2000-01. That puts Bo Ryan's 15-13 season in a much more positive light. So yeah, if you came in at the pinnacle or the build-up to the pinnacle, you're more likely to look at Rob Jeter's tenure in a negative light than you would if you sat through Ric Cobb and the scandals of more successful coaches taking down the program. I think it all comes back to perspective. And I don't think there's really much more to argue over that. I keep hammering the "it takes a village" line because I don't want new flavors of administrative mishaps kneecapping Bart Lundy. Every one of us wants him hanging banners, because this program doesn't belong to Mark Mone, or Amanda Braun, or Bruce Pearl, or Rob Jeter. It belongs to us. This is our program. Coaches and administrators are simply stewards.
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Post by Cactus Panther on Mar 28, 2022 19:10:23 GMT -6
Ok, ok, ok, ok. You really thought it was necessary to start a thread explaining St. Rob was somewhat above the relative norm in a program that is historically less than mediocre? Most of us here realize that.
Today is one of the biggest non-game days in recent Panther history. Not long ago you commented in very large font "THIS IS NOT ABOUT ROB JETER." Can we move on, please?
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Post by Cactus Panther on Mar 28, 2022 19:18:31 GMT -6
I'll help FTA1982 out a little with just one example of how things really were thought of here on the message board. This thread was from near the end of the 2013-14 regular season. And this was the good year of that era! uwmfreak.proboards.com/thread/6593/game-29-uic |
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Post by chipanthers45 on Mar 28, 2022 19:26:20 GMT -6
It's 2022, I think we can go without threads about Rob Jeter. As Cactus Panther said, move on.
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Post by FTA1982 on Mar 28, 2022 19:37:02 GMT -6
I'll help FTA1982 out a little with just one example of how things really were thought of here on the message board. This thread was from near the end of the 2013-14 regular season. And this was the good year of that era! uwmfreak.proboards.com/thread/6593/game-29-uic This was my point. Jimmy wrote a column called stuck in the mud. GoD was numb and losing interest, hell he apologized to AB. Fran was on his annual end of season hiatus from the board because the team was performing poorly. It's not about perspective. It was about facts which this thread that Cactus linked proves. |
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Post by Duct_Tape_Pounce on Mar 28, 2022 19:42:37 GMT -6
I should probably take some blame for this by saying that the years so many of us look so fondly on were, in fact, pretty mediocre. Sorry for adding fuel to the fire.
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Mar 28, 2022 20:06:42 GMT -6
Wow, that thread was something. I make no appearances in it, because I left that game very angry at halftime and got blasted on Water St. the rest of the night.
Someone should have been policing the egregious rulebreaking on the pmck capitalization. It was all over the place!
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Post by PantherU on Mar 28, 2022 20:34:14 GMT -6
Ok, ok, ok, ok. You really thought it was necessary to start a thread explaining St. Rob was somewhat above the relative norm in a program that is historically less than mediocre? Most of us here realize that. Today is one of the biggest non-game days in recent Panther history. Not long ago you commented in very large font "THIS IS NOT ABOUT ROB JETER." Can we move on, please? This thread was an attempt to return the Bart Lundy threads to talk about Bart Lundy. I'll help FTA1982 out a little with just one example of how things really were thought of here on the message board. This thread was from near the end of the 2013-14 regular season. And this was the good year of that era! uwmfreak.proboards.com/thread/6593/game-29-uicThis was my point. Jimmy wrote a column called stuck in the mud. GoD was numb and losing interest, hell he apologized to AB. It's not about perspective. It was about facts which this thread that Cactus linked proves. There were things we didn't know about happening behind the scenes in that thread that we found out about later. If you're an administrator of a program and you can pick any player from a team over the course of the entire school year to choose for a drug test, why do you pick the best player on the team in the last month of the regular season if your plan is not to sabotage the program? We didn't know about that. We knew Jay-O was out for the previous four games but we didn't know why. There are other things that I can't talk about on the board because I made promises to players that I wouldn't make certain things become public knowledge. Most of these things I learned about in 2015 and 2016 and would have informed my writings on the board and PantherU around the awful loss to UIC in 2014. I don't need to click on the thread or read PantherU from that week. I know where my thought process was during that game, I remember what I said courtside during that game, I remember what AB said to me and I remember my reaction to her. I swear to f***ing god this is not about Rob Jeter. I tried to bury that talk with this thread. Clearly I failed in that. This thread was my attempt to take a conversation in a Bart Lundy thread that had moved to this re-litigation of the past and move it to its own thread so I could try and get everyone to find a final way of understanding why we each think what we think about a contentious era of the program and wrap up whatever final thoughts we wanted to share before we ended it for good. I literally acknowledged a few of the valid complaints regarding Jeter that I believe contributed to his lack of success at the level our fan base demanded. How the f*** is that me defending Jeter? - I tried to point to his early inexperience because that reiterates why we all wanted someone with Bart Lundy's resume this time around. - I tried to point out that he played out the season to win in March and that bit him in the ass. That's not defending Rob Jeter, that's pointing out a valid criticism that hasn't been brought up for years. - I tried to point out that administrative f***-ups led to his two worst years of his tenure, not because I wanted you guys to love Rob Jeter but because I WANT US TO AVOID THIS sh*t HAPPENING TO BART LUNDY. - I tried to remind everyone that sometimes bad luck bites you in the ass. Take that as a defense of Jeter if you want, I'll concede that, but I didn't see anyone pointing out that Bruce Pearl's Sweet 16 was one bucket away from being an NIT berth and the conference, especially Butler, was absolute trash that year. We had good luck in 2005. We had bad luck in 2011. That isn't to say that the 2011 team was as good as the 2005 team, that's just to point out that how good you are at basketball is only one factor. Sometimes you've got bad luck. - and I tried to say hey, this guy didn't win at the level we wanted him to win at and that's why he's gone. This thread was not my attempt to relitigate. This thread was my attempt to acknowledge where everyone was coming from and put it to rest in a way that let us get back to what was important about today, as John said. The point I was trying to make is this. Hey, maybe Rob Jeter wasn't the best coach and he sure wasn't Bruce Pearl, but neither was anyone else in our 39-year history as a program. Maybe we shouldn't trash the good things that happened during his tenure and instead focus on the positive: he did some good things, Pearl did some great things, Bo got us on the right track and Bart Lundy is the right man in the right job at the right time. We need to understand the faults of the past so we don't repeat them. I don't think AB is going to repeat the sins of her early years regarding Rob Jeter because Bart Lundy's her hire and I don't know any specifics over the last five years, but I also can't bring myself to trust her because some of the mistakes she's made had nothing to do with the current basketball coaching staff of whichever time it was from 2013 to 2022. I am concerned that moving forward, we don't have an administration and athletic director that can sell this program to the public and campus, and if Coach Lundy is successful I worry that we will have an administration and athletic director that won't be able to capitalize on that success and foster the future of the program in order to sustain it when he eventually leaves. Please, please, please someone read this book. We need to get out of this mindset that everything can be done by one man. John Calipari wasn't wrong when he said "it takes a village," he was just wrong about his program at the time because at Memphis it took duffel bags of cash. Yes, it's about perspective. Using information from the past to inform our road to the future is not attempting to relitigate the past. It's about institutional memory. |
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Post by Cactus Panther on Mar 28, 2022 20:55:32 GMT -6
Ok, ok, ok, ok. You really thought it was necessary to start a thread explaining St. Rob was somewhat above the relative norm in a program that is historically less than mediocre? Most of us here realize that. Today is one of the biggest non-game days in recent Panther history. Not long ago you commented in very large font "THIS IS NOT ABOUT ROB JETER." Can we move on, please? This thread was an attempt to return the Bart Lundy threads to talk about Bart Lundy. I'll help FTA1982 out a little with just one example of how things really were thought of here on the message board. This thread was from near the end of the 2013-14 regular season. And this was the good year of that era! uwmfreak.proboards.com/thread/6593/game-29-uicThis was my point. Jimmy wrote a column called stuck in the mud. GoD was numb and losing interest, hell he apologized to AB. It's not about perspective. It was about facts which this thread that Cactus linked proves. There were things we didn't know about happening behind the scenes in that thread that we found out about later. If you're an administrator of a program and you can pick any player from a team over the course of the entire school year to choose for a drug test, why do you pick the best player on the team in the last month of the regular season if your plan is not to sabotage the program? We didn't know about that. We knew Jay-O was out for the previous four games but we didn't know why. There are other things that I can't talk about on the board because I made promises to players that I wouldn't make certain things become public knowledge. Most of these things I learned about in 2015 and 2016 and would have informed my writings on the board and PantherU around the awful loss to UIC in 2014. I don't need to click on the thread or read PantherU from that week. I know where my thought process was during that game, I remember what I said courtside during that game, I remember what AB said to me and I remember my reaction to her. I swear to f***ing god this is not about Rob Jeter. I tried to bury that talk with this thread. Clearly I failed in that. This thread was my attempt to take a conversation in a Bart Lundy thread that had moved to this re-litigation of the past and move it to its own thread so I could try and get everyone to find a final way of understanding why we each think what we think about a contentious era of the program and wrap up whatever final thoughts we wanted to share before we ended it for good. I literally acknowledged a few of the valid complaints regarding Jeter that I believe contributed to his lack of success at the level our fan base demanded. How the f*** is that me defending Jeter? - I tried to point to his early inexperience because that reiterates why we all wanted someone with Bart Lundy's resume this time around. - I tried to point out that he played out the season to win in March and that bit him in the ass. That's not defending Rob Jeter, that's pointing out a valid criticism that hasn't been brought up for years. - I tried to point out that administrative f***-ups led to his two worst years of his tenure, not because I wanted you guys to love Rob Jeter but because I WANT US TO AVOID THIS sh*t HAPPENING TO BART LUNDY. - I tried to remind everyone that sometimes bad luck bites you in the ass. Take that as a defense of Jeter if you want, I'll concede that, but I didn't see anyone pointing out that Bruce Pearl's Sweet 16 was one bucket away from being an NIT berth and the conference, especially Butler, was absolute trash that year. We had good luck in 2005. We had bad luck in 2011. That isn't to say that the 2011 team was as good as the 2005 team, that's just to point out that how good you are at basketball is only one factor. Sometimes you've got bad luck. - and I tried to say hey, this guy didn't win at the level we wanted him to win at and that's why he's gone. This thread was not my attempt to relitigate. This thread was my attempt to acknowledge where everyone was coming from and put it to rest in a way that let us get back to what was important about today, as John said. The point I was trying to make is this. Hey, maybe Rob Jeter wasn't the best coach and he sure wasn't Bruce Pearl, but neither was anyone else in our 39-year history as a program. Maybe we shouldn't trash the good things that happened during his tenure and instead focus on the positive: he did some good things, Pearl did some great things, Bo got us on the right track and Bart Lundy is the right man in the right job at the right time. We need to understand the faults of the past so we don't repeat them. I don't think AB is going to repeat the sins of her early years regarding Rob Jeter because Bart Lundy's her hire and I don't know any specifics over the last five years, but I also can't bring myself to trust her because some of the mistakes she's made had nothing to do with the current basketball coaching staff of whichever time it was from 2013 to 2022. I am concerned that moving forward, we don't have an administration and athletic director that can sell this program to the public and campus, and if Coach Lundy is successful I worry that we will have an administration and athletic director that won't be able to capitalize on that success and foster the future of the program in order to sustain it when he eventually leaves. Please, please, please someone read this book. We need to get out of this mindset that everything can be done by one man. John Calipari wasn't wrong when he said "it takes a village," he was just wrong about his program at the time because at Memphis it took duffel bags of cash. Yes, it's about perspective. Using information from the past to inform our road to the future is not attempting to relitigate the past. It's about institutional memory. As the late Jim Irwin used to say, "and that's a viewpoint." History is important as a guide to avoid making the same mistakes over and over. I am cautiously optimistic that this administration and AB has learned from history, including the episodes they have been a part of. The actions and words expressed these past three or four weeks bolster this optimism. Since we seemingly are unmoderated, this thread will not likely be closed. Too bad, it would be nice to close it right here and then move on. Go Panthers! |
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Post by PantherU on Mar 28, 2022 21:54:55 GMT -6
I thought as the thread starter I'd have the ability to lock the thread. I agree that this is a good point to end it.
Maybe Lou will see this at some point.
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Post by BBFran on Mar 30, 2022 12:47:22 GMT -6
Interesting discussion, but in the modern internet world having perspective is considered a fault.
Personally I am just hopeful that Lundy will eventually achieve the level of success with the program that Jeter did. It will be tough, because he will be rowing against an administrative tide that has conclusively proved over an entire decade that it has utterly no interest in the success of men’s basketball. Really the best he can hope for is a period of benign administrative neglect. That would be a tremendous upgrade. He’ll get a brief pass of a few seasons from most of the few remaining fans, most of whom have been calling for a coach with his apparent characteristics for quite a while. He’ll need that pass, because there’s very little returning talent, and as he has admitted (which is a positive) he has a lot of catching up to do to recruit Wisconsin, which is absolutely essential in this job. The miserable state of the Horizon League
presents both a recruiting problem and a competitive opportunity.
Anyway, as my tag line says (and he should study its history carefully), I wish him luck. He’ll need it.
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Post by Cactus Panther on Mar 30, 2022 15:14:24 GMT -6
A challenge to everyone else on this message board!
Let Fran be Fran. He is just stating what he has over the past six years and applying it to the new coaching hire. No need for this thread to continue with a response to his post (or his potential reply to this one). I trust that the rest of us are capable of positively looking forward.
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Mar 30, 2022 15:29:19 GMT -6
A challenge to everyone else on this message board! Let Fran be Fran. He is just stating what he has over the past six years and applying it to the new coaching hire. No need for this thread to continue with a response to his post (or his potential reply to this one). I trust that the rest of us are capable of positively looking forward. Why did you feel the need to chime in? It seems to me you can't help yourself any time Fran posts. By the way, it seems the past few days that you've crowned yourself Board Moderater. I think people can decide for themselves what they want to respond to and where they respond to it. |
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Post by Cactus Panther on Mar 30, 2022 15:42:22 GMT -6
A challenge to everyone else on this message board! Let Fran be Fran. He is just stating what he has over the past six years and applying it to the new coaching hire. No need for this thread to continue with a response to his post (or his potential reply to this one). I trust that the rest of us are capable of positively looking forward. Why did you feel the need to chime in? It seems to me you can't help yourself any time Fran posts. By the way, it seems the past few days that you've crowned yourself Board Moderater. I think people can decide for themselves what they want to respond to and where they respond to it. Keep in mind the original poster, Jimmy, wanted to close this thread. He even sought out an old moderator, Lou, hoping perhaps it could happen. Sure, people can chime in when they want. I'm just asking posters to resist the urge. Why keep going down the same rabbit hole during one of the biggest and most important non-championship game weeks in program history? |
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Post by BBFran on Mar 30, 2022 17:29:30 GMT -6
There's no rabbit hole other than the one you and your tiny band of compatriots urged us to fall into, John, with your spectacularly wrong take on our coaching situation. Ably excavated by our administration that hole is now so deep it has left our new coach an imposing climb just to haul us back to what you ludicrously saw as "mediocrity."
And do you really disagree that it's imperative that Coach Lundy always watch his back, lest the same administrative sabotage happen to him? What on earth has happened in the last ten years that would lead you to such a risky conclusion? This is not a joke. He needs to have eyes in the back of his head in that building. The safest approach would be that on important issues he should skip right over "trust" to "verify." Especially after the honeymoon period of the hiring has worn off and there are no happy press conferences for others to appear at and pretend to competence, while never taking any responsibility for the problems the new coach alone (and for the third time in six years) will now be expected to solve.
Say, on another (but related) topic, I don't suppose our Athletic Director has restated her coaching standards from 2016, or perhaps, updated them?
If not the latter, I assume Coach Lundy will be judged by the originals.
Good luck Coach. You will need it. See my tag line.
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I think the mood on the board about the program was less than mediocre at the time. I feel like those saying that range of time was better than mediocre are re-writing history.
