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Ahem
Dec 20, 2005 16:52:35 GMT -6
Post by milwsport on Dec 20, 2005 16:52:35 GMT -6
Just for the record... I'd rather be a Packer fan at 0-16 than a fan of ANYONE else at 16-0 Here Here! Also it's not fair to rate Rodgers based on his former coach. Look at Carr. No one is going to be good when they get sacked an average of 7 times a game. (Keep in mind those are just the times they caught him before he got rid of the ball). Look at Javon Walker too. When the Pack drafted him the experts predicted failure based on what other WR's from his school had done in the NFL. As for Rodgers, Sherman is an idiot. He put him in there with a second and third string line to protect him. Hell on that last fumble, even Madden called it before the snap. What a confidence booster that must be. I think he COULD be good, but like any other QB, he needs a decent line, people who can catch the ball and a running threat.
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fan
Sophomore
Don't shoot so much Tone.
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Ahem
Dec 20, 2005 16:57:43 GMT -6
Post by fan on Dec 20, 2005 16:57:43 GMT -6
the fact that he missed as much as he did the first round was due as much by the fact that he picked so late. What? How silly is this. He can pick well in LATER rounds but not later in the first? Does this make Andy Reid the greatest GM ever considering he can draft well at the end of the 1st rd? Wolf was not the greatest GM ever. He did well at taking fliers and getting more picks so he had less room for error. He was a good GM who got Reggie White to come to his team. Where they picked Rodgers makes him a good pick. Tedford himself claimed he was his best QB yet. You take a shot on a guy who is graded as high as Rodgers was no matter what when you need that spot. It may not turn out to be the best pick but it still stands as the correct pick given the circumstances.
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Dec 20, 2005 23:06:36 GMT -6
Post by JimmyLemke on Dec 20, 2005 23:06:36 GMT -6
Ron Wolf was probably the best GM in the history of the game.
He built a team for longevity, and that team will now have its first losing record in a LONG time because he had it set up to go the distance. He has been gone for long enough to that we are at the point we need a new Ron Wolf.
I'd take a disciplinarian Vince Lombardi too...this season just echoes the season before Lombardi came on board too much to ignore.
I'm not going to come up with supports for that argument, too late at night, I'mgoing back to me paper.
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fan
Sophomore
Don't shoot so much Tone.
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Ahem
Dec 20, 2005 23:46:28 GMT -6
Post by fan on Dec 20, 2005 23:46:28 GMT -6
Ron Wolf was probably the best GM in the history of the game. On a site that is built on being a "homer" this could be the largest homer oversight in the history of the world. Do you know who Scott Pioli is? I'm not even going to call him the greatest GM ever, but he has won 3 super bowls in comparison to Wolf's one that would be a huge blow to your claim. Take off your Wisconsin blinders before you make silly statements like this. Ron Wolf has always been a nice guy in my correspondance with him, but c'mon. Putting Ron Wolf in the top 10 ever would be close to a stretch, let alone #1. He built a team for longevity, and that team will now have its first losing record in a LONG time because he had it set up to go the distance. Do you honestly believe this comment? He brought in countless aging veterans ala Keith jackson, Eugene, Sean Jones, Reggie. These guys are not people you bring in when you are building for the long haul. Not only that, this is Pro Sports which means you aren't sh*t if you don't win the big one. Additionally, you do realize that prior to a couple years ago Wolf was basically the GM of the Browns. How well had they done in free agency and the draft? I'd take a disciplinarian Vince Lombardi too...this season just echoes the season before Lombardi came on board too much to ignore. There wasn't even an NFL!!! What kind of echo are you hearing? I think any team would like to have Vince Lombardi. Maybe his grandson would like to coach. They may need discipline ala Parcells and Coughlin too but do you see them being available?
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 1:37:19 GMT -6
Post by Pantherholic on Dec 21, 2005 1:37:19 GMT -6
Do you know who Scott Pioli is? I'm not even going to call him the greatest GM ever, but he has won 3 super bowls in comparison to Wolf's one that would be a huge blow to your claim. damn good point fan. Pioli has done a lot more w/ the Pats than Wolf did AND he didn't have to offer huge contracts to bring them in like Wolf did w/ Reggie White. Lombardi was a good coach, but i'll take the greatest ever, Bill Walsh.
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fan
Sophomore
Don't shoot so much Tone.
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 2:44:39 GMT -6
Post by fan on Dec 21, 2005 2:44:39 GMT -6
The sad thing is I think that even former Buccaneers GM Rich Mckay could be brought into the picture as someone who would be equal to or even better than Ron Wolf. Considering that he has brought 2 teams to the playoffs and won a championship. He has served on far more influential positions within the NFL infastructure and is one of the if not the top candidates for successor to Tags.
Don't f*** with a guy who has the last 15 NFL Drafts on VHS, has been to 6 of them and lives by them, my friend. Wolf is not the best GM ever. Even if you were to limit your claim to say that he had the salary cap to deal with, then you still have many other candidates who are just as good or better.
You can read my draft prospectus in early April and learn something.
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 2:59:33 GMT -6
Post by Pantherholic on Dec 21, 2005 2:59:33 GMT -6
i used to like McKay but now i hate him b/c he not only did he leave us in salary cap hell but he left us to go to the Atlanta Vicks. i mean of all the teams he went to our most hated rival. there are very few players i ever wish ill-will on but i will love it when someone takes Vick out for good. i say "when" since the way he plays he won't last another 5 years. wonder where all those bandwagon fans will go then? the look on McKay's face after we beat those over-rated assholes in atlanta was priceless. www.tbbucfan.com/clips/rmwk11.wmv
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fan
Sophomore
Don't shoot so much Tone.
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 8:53:18 GMT -6
Post by fan on Dec 21, 2005 8:53:18 GMT -6
It does seem to be a true political argument at this point but McKay's signings at the end of his tenure were not "his" choices. Gruden was pretty adament about getting everyone who was a free agent. Especially the old injury prone characters. Once McKay left Pandora's box got sprung wide open and Gruden pulled like 86 free agents that off-season. The cap and his previous misses finally forced Gruden to show some restraint this offseason and he signed a couple steals ala Bolden and Hovan. Lets not forget that it was Gruden who couldn't get along with Keyshawn which caused a large cap hit.
Needless to say Gruden is a much better coach than he is a GM. He would be someone that Ron Wolf is better than (at general managing not at coaching). McKay is still a beast.
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 10:21:30 GMT -6
Post by PantherLou on Dec 21, 2005 10:21:30 GMT -6
Fan, if you think that Rich McKay is (was) a better GM than Ron Wolf, you are sadly mistaken. McKay had a good eye for talent, but he absolutely had no idea how to manage the cap. I too have followed the NFL draft for year (yes, i remember the Tom Braatz years) so please don't try to compare me to someone who's just spouting a useless opinion. By the way, what drafts did you go to? I was in NY for 2001 and 2002 (horrible drafts for the Packers, BTW)
For the record, I am not claiming that Ron Wolf is the GREATEST GM ever, just that he was excellent in that capacity. One of the best in the free agency period? Without a doubt. I think Scott Pioli is doing a great job in NE, but unlike Wolf in GB, Pioli does not have complete power. He was hired by Bill Belichick. And you have to agree that Belichick did not hire him (Pioli) to be his boss. Also, go back and look at NE's drafts since 2000 (when Pioli was hired). They have been OK, but certainly not great. The success in NE is due far more to Belichick than to Pioli.
Anyway, to clarify my point on Wolf's drafts: He understood that the NFL draft is, despite the best work of scouts, still a lottery of sorts. There is no guarantee of any success with ANY player. Wolf's best skill was in obtaining as many picks as possible. One of his best ways of doing that was by trading down on the first day. The Packers never had a pick higher than 14 (Bubba Franks) after T-Buck (5th in 1992, and a mistake that I believe pissed off Ron Wolf his entire career) This left the Packers with a lot more 3rd-7th round picks, but historically, they had very few picks in rounds 1 and 2. It stands to reason, that with more picks, the greater your chance of success. It is my steadfast belief that the chance of success is not significant greater with a player drafted in the late first round, than it is with a player in the second, or often, even the third round. And while he never hit the jackpot with first round picks, it's not like he busted out every years either.
Ron Wolf was great at this. He consistently stockpiled picks, and was able to get players. And that is the the important thing about the draft. Not when you get players, but if you do.
The other thing that he did great (and this is what separates him from McKay, in my opinion), was that he refused to hold on to a player who was a mistake and he also refused to overpay for production. The Packers under Mike Sherman have consistently failed both regards. I think it is no coincidence that the two most successful franchises over the last 4 years (NE and Philly) have drawn a very hard line when it comes to player negotiations.
Anyway, that's my rant. I am sure that at least 50% of what I just wrote will be misconstrued, so feel free to ask for clarification.
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Dec 21, 2005 11:19:51 GMT -6
Post by aknowsense on Dec 21, 2005 11:19:51 GMT -6
Don't f**k with a guy who has the last 15 NFL Drafts on VHS, has been to 6 of them and lives by them, my friend. You can read my draft prospectus in early April and learn something. How many VHS tapes does 15 NFL drafts fill up?
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fan
Sophomore
Don't shoot so much Tone.
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 13:00:10 GMT -6
Post by fan on Dec 21, 2005 13:00:10 GMT -6
McKay had a good eye for talent, but he absolutely had no idea how to manage the cap. Although I don't care for Peter King: "Rich balances caring about his team's fortunes with caring about the League's fortunes as well as any front-office man in the NFL has done since George Young lorded over the Giants," said national writer Peter King from Sports Illustrated. "He's intensely competitive, but he also sees the big picture of what's good for the NFL as a sport and a business." By the way, what drafts did you go to? I was in NY for 2001 and 2002 (horrible drafts for the Packers, BTW) 2001 was my junior prom. I wanted to go really bad but I was convinced by my gf and family to stay. I reemed out the prom coordinator for putting the date on the most important weekend of the year. 2002 I advanced to Nationals in DECA. I was tempted to skip this and go again but I decided against it and went to Nationals anyways. Funny how you cite the two years other than this past one where I didn't go. The Day 2 Diehard promotion was the greatest thing they ever thought of. I love getting my tickets in February and not having to wait in line forever. I remember my first year where we slept in front of the door and were there from 11pm-10:30am. Fun times chillin with the bums. I think Scott Pioli is doing a great job in NE, but unlike Wolf in GB, Pioli does not have complete power. He was hired by Bill Belichick. And you have to agree that Belichick did not hire him (Pioli) to be his boss. Also, go back and look at NE's drafts since 2000 (when Pioli was hired). They have been OK, but certainly not great. The success in NE is due far more to Belichick than to Pioli. Granted Belichick is doing a lion's share of the work, Pioli's drafts have always been criticized as full of reaches and tweeners but he knows who will do well. I think considering their cap management, Pioli is due more credit than what you're giving him. At some point you have to look at the GM and coach as a team. Wolf had Holmgren who obviously had his share of input on personnel matters. The other thing that he did great (and this is what separates him from McKay, in my opinion), was that he refused to hold on to a player who was a mistake and he also refused to overpay for production. I'm not sure I can totally see where McKay didn't exhibit this. In many cases it wasn't smart to cut the player before their contract ran out. I think the common argument made would be Dilfer. I disagree with that assessment and I don't know as if it was always McKay's call to keep a guy around or in the lineup more importantly. Thats the Head Coach.
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Ahem
Dec 21, 2005 21:59:30 GMT -6
Post by milwsport on Dec 21, 2005 21:59:30 GMT -6
Wolf did more than get us aging vets. He also got us Farve, and an outstanding offensive line.
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