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Post by Cactus Panther on Mar 27, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -6
We're going to be fine. Erik Pratt is 80% of the player BJ is on offense and he's a better defender. Move him up, bring in McKee and we're just about the same team as we sit. Really wanna get Faizon another post partner who is strong defensively (hopefully stronger) besides Duffy in case one of those guys gets hurt. If we maintain the rest of the current roster, I'm excited because we're mostly adding depth pieces. I think Elijah could really use an offseason focusing on deprioritizing his own shot in favor of his teammates, some of his best games offensively have been because he looked to get others a shot before himself. But some of these comments make BJ sound like he was a good but not great player. He's literally top 10, possibly top 5 all-time Panthers. Look at the stats. #3 and #8 seasons all-time for points per game. #1 points per game all-time for anyone who played more than one year (essentially removing Von McDade). Led the Horizon League in assists and by the end of the season, scoring. Like a lot of elite Panthers, he was held back on end of the year voting. POTY caliber season in a year when 3-4 guys had POTY caliber seasons. Defensively average at best, sure, but let's not act like the guy wasn't one of the all-time greats. I know we will be fine, because we were generally the same level team without BJ last season as we were with BJ. Cactus pulled up the stats multiple times. One only has to rewatch the HL Final to see we played better without BJ on the floor that game. Away at IUPUI was another example of such a game. Good offensive player yes, Great sometimes on offense Yes. Defensively some large issues that made the team had to literally drop into a zone when he was on the floor. I think some people just didnt watch him play defense. Bart made the mistake not holding him accountable on that end earlier in the year, maybe for the worry that he would enter the portal because of it who knows. The Panthers ended up 8-10 versus peer competition with BJ. They were 5-3 without him against peer competition. Peer competition is every D1 opponent except sub 120 and 350 plus in the NET. Bart did sit BJ in the HL championship game for 10 minutes, mostly in the second half, even though BJ did not have any fouls. He also sat 8 minutes against NKU in the semifinal game. |
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Post by tyrunner0097 on Mar 27, 2024 21:01:18 GMT -6
...Lundy Magic is REAL!
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Post by FTA1982 on Mar 27, 2024 21:14:13 GMT -6
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Post by mattg on Mar 27, 2024 21:28:52 GMT -6
I wanted to weigh in on the people saying he was good but not great. That’s total BS and you all know it. It’s backed up by the statistics here and we all know he deserved to be 1st team all HL in both seasons here. The fact he wasn’t just shows that those awards have just as much to do with politics as anything. A lot of you all saying good but not great as your argument are just living in the past, thinking nobody could possibly top former Panthers you watched years ago just because the team was possibly better. He was a huge reason why we even contended these past two years, maybe the biggest reason. I will say the turnovers were frustrating, but he was also given primary ball handler duties when that’s not how he is best used in an offense. Defensively, he is what he is. I know not many of us witnessed the 43-point game vs. Stetson in person during the CBI last year, but that was a masterclass of attacking the basket and that leading to opportunities from deep. I know for damn sure it was even more exciting to watch unfold right in front of my eyes. I can’t think of a better way for him to leave the MKE-GB rivalry than with two wins that completely demoralized their entire program and sent many players portaling shortly into the transfer window as well. Say what you want about BJ, but he is an all-time great Panther whether you like it or not. B.J. is an all-time program great offensive player. One of the most prolific scorers of all time. Of course, this sport has two sides to the court. Does anyone here recall how Clay Tucker used to defend? Or Ed McCants? Or Boo Davis? Remember how they jumped the passing lanes and dived on the floor? Remember how Boo stoned "The Real Deal" Michael Neal in our upset of No. 21 Oklahoma in the 2006 NCAA Tournament, all while scoring a game-high 26 points on 7 of 15 from the field and 8 of 10 from the line? Remember what a nuisance C-Hill was? Those guys were fully invested on both sides of the court. It's what set them apart and ultimately set those '03-'06 TEAMS apart BJ put up raw volume scoring numbers. But...I'd hope that most diehard basketball fans who devote as much time as anyone who posts on a proboards message board to talk about a low major college team understand how inconsequential raw PPG stats are. BJ was 18th in the Horizon league in TS% and top overall in usage. People on this board talk like politics are what kept BJ off first team all Horizon...but like you can't even remotely make a statistical argument that BJ was a more impactful player than Noah Reynolds this year at his same damn position.
The team disappointed this season. 5th in the Horizon league. Literally better W/L without BJ than with him. He was terrible turning the ball over (regardless of the role he was in, he was horrific in that regard by any metric you want to point to) and he wasn't an efficient scorer on top of things. He was so bad on defense the entire team had to switch mid season to playing zone the vast majority of the time because BJ couldn't even be hidden on weak offensive players. That's not even getting into his trash body language and attitude. BJ if he was a less productive player would have been kicked off the team the same time as Browning was and there were people within the program surprised that he wasn't kicked off the team. He's honestly lucky he got hurt at that time which gave him the humble pie of showing the team is just as good/maybe better without him completely.
So I look at things like BJ was one of the most talented players in program history, but nowhere even close to the best guys we've had who actually achieved things team wise and played in a WAY better quality league than the current Horizon. Mediocre efficiency volume scorers who turn the ball over nonstop and don't play any defense are the classic trap archetype of player who people without a great understanding of winning basketball tend to drastically overrate. We will be fine without BJ.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 27, 2024 21:44:49 GMT -6
What is it with this board and pissing on people's shoes on their way out the door?
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Post by ghostofpbj on Mar 27, 2024 21:46:12 GMT -6
What is it with this board and pissing on people's shoes on their way out the door? Misery loves company |
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Post by reginaldkdwight on Mar 27, 2024 21:55:25 GMT -6
What is it with this board and pissing on people's shoes on their way out the door? So people can't bring up actual stats to refute this narrative that BJ was robbed of first team horizon? Did no one else notice our switch to zone? Go rewatch the first 4 minutes of the away game at IUPUI and its basically a microcosm of what some of us have been saying about BJs effort on the court. Completely Putrid I never remember guys like either Tucker or McCants giving that type of effort on the defensive end. Granted BP woulda sat guys so fast their head would spin for playing like that. Don't think Bo put up with that either. HAVE to hold your most talented player accountable on defense. There was also lots of smoke regarding BJ this year, do people forget him having to sit vs stout for a vague team rules violation? No ones pissing in his shoes. Most of us would have liked to have him back but the team will be fine if not more well rounded and complete without him next year.
Also doubt you get a guy like Lovelace in here if BJ is still on the team, BJ loved to chirp at every single team in the league and I know refs have started to pin us as a team that whines over calls a lot, and we earned a sh*tload of techs this year because of it. Its crazy because Bart is a very reserved in complaining to the refs compared to everyones darling Kampe and some other coaches in the league. Some wild disconnect between HC and the players and assistant coaches.
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Post by tyrunner0097 on Mar 27, 2024 22:15:03 GMT -6
If we somehow get him...we'll need to prep the Arena for some more banners.  |
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Post by TBone on Mar 27, 2024 22:36:28 GMT -6
I know we will be fine, because we were generally the same level team without BJ last season as we were with BJ. Cactus pulled up the stats multiple times. One only has to rewatch the HL Final to see we played better without BJ on the floor that game. Away at IUPUI was another example of such a game. Good offensive player yes, Great sometimes on offense Yes. Defensively some large issues that made the team had to literally drop into a zone when he was on the floor. I think some people just didnt watch him play defense. Bart made the mistake not holding him accountable on that end earlier in the year, maybe for the worry that he would enter the portal because of it who knows. The Panthers ended up 8-10 versus peer competition with BJ. They were 5-3 without him against peer competition. Peer competition is every D1 opponent except sub 120 and 350 plus in the NET. Bart did sit BJ in the HL championship game for 10 minutes, mostly in the second half, even though BJ did not have any fouls. He also sat 8 minutes against NKU in the semifinal game. A one game swing in either record could result in a .500 record for games both with and without BJ. In other words, there is no real conclusive evidence that the team played better with BJ. Three of the peer competition wins without BJ were after Markeith was let go as well, so we were 2-3 without BJ but with Markeith. (though I show 1-3, but based on Cactus' numbers it would be 2-3) Meanwhile, we were 0-4 in peer competition games with both Markeith and BJ. You could argue that Markeith was actually a bigger part of the team playing poorly as we were 1-7 against peer competition with Markeith and 12-6 without. Did the team play better at times without BJ? Yes. Did the team play better at times with BJ? Yes. Does the team beat Detroit in the tourney without BJ? Unlikely. Would we have beaten Green Bay in the tourney on the road without BJ, where we were pretty bad? Again, unlikely. One could argue the same for the Northern Kentucky game, though it's not as clear-cut. For every game where the team appeared to have played better without BJ, there's at least one, if not a couple of games where the team likely played better with BJ. While the team played better in the final for a period of time without BJ, you can't discount BJ's contributions to get to that final game without cherry picking. Singling out one or two instances and making definitive conclusions based on them is not a good way to make good conclusions, and any statistician will tell you that. If that were the case, Fields should have been relegated to the bench based on a number of his early games. Sample size matters - or at least it should. BJ was the quickest Panther to score 1,000 points. He was the only Panther to win the Horizon League Player of the Week multiple times in a season in multiple seasons. He was the Horizon League Player of the Week 5 times - a Panther record, surpassing Dylan Page's 4. Dylan, Joah Tucker, Clay Tucker, Adrian Tigert, Von McDade, Ed McCants, Chad Angeli and BJ (in no particular order) are the greatest Panthers since entering Division 1 IMHO. Chris Hill and Shannon Smith would likely round out the top 10. GoD or some of the other old timers may have some others I've missed that could be added to the list, but this is a pretty solid list of the greatest to put on a Panther uniform. A good argument could be made that BJ should be in the top 5. |
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Post by reginaldkdwight on Mar 27, 2024 22:48:26 GMT -6
Offensive wise sure, but he was a minus defender and I am not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. Oh and a lot of those guys listed got us to the mountaintop in a much better league.
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Post by TBone on Mar 27, 2024 23:06:59 GMT -6
B.J. is an all-time program great offensive player. One of the most prolific scorers of all time. Of course, this sport has two sides to the court. Does anyone here recall how Clay Tucker used to defend? Or Ed McCants? Or Boo Davis? Remember how they jumped the passing lanes and dived on the floor? Remember how Boo stoned "The Real Deal" Michael Neal in our upset of No. 21 Oklahoma in the 2006 NCAA Tournament, all while scoring a game-high 26 points on 7 of 15 from the field and 8 of 10 from the line? Remember what a nuisance C-Hill was? Those guys were fully invested on both sides of the court. It's what set them apart and ultimately set those '03-'06 TEAMS apart BJ put up raw volume scoring numbers. But...I'd hope that most diehard basketball fans who devote as much time as anyone who posts on a proboards message board to talk about a low major college team understand how inconsequential raw PPG stats are. BJ was 18th in the Horizon league in TS% and top overall in usage. People on this board talk like politics are what kept BJ off first team all Horizon...but like you can't even remotely make a statistical argument that BJ was a more impactful player than Noah Reynolds this year at his same damn position. The team disappointed this season. 5th in the Horizon league. Literally better W/L without BJ than with him. He was terrible turning the ball over (regardless of the role he was in, he was horrific in that regard by any metric you want to point to) and he wasn't an efficient scorer on top of things. He was so bad on defense the entire team had to switch mid season to playing zone the vast majority of the time because BJ couldn't even be hidden on weak offensive players. That's not even getting into his trash body language and attitude. BJ if he was a less productive player would have been kicked off the team the same time as Browning was and there were people within the program surprised that he wasn't kicked off the team. He's honestly lucky he got hurt at that time which gave him the humble pie of showing the team is just as good/maybe better without him completely.
So I look at things like BJ was one of the most talented players in program history, but nowhere even close to the best guys we've had who actually achieved things team wise and played in a WAY better quality league than the current Horizon. Mediocre efficiency volume scorers who turn the ball over nonstop and don't play any defense are the classic trap archetype of player who people without a great understanding of winning basketball tend to drastically overrate. We will be fine without BJ.
How many of the top 18 players in TS% were shooting guards? BJ was right around top 10 in the conference in shooting percentage from 3 and 17th in overall shooting percentage. Given TS% is supposed to measure how effective a shooter is by incorporating overall field goal percentage and free throw percentage, it's hard to believe that most of the players above him weren't big men. I count our record against D-1 competition to be 4-3 without BJ and 14-12 with him. So, no, the record isn't particularly better without him. He had a lot of turnovers, true, but his assist to turnover ration was 1.1, which is on par for a non-point guard in college, and was top 15 in the conference. His defense was so bad the team gave up an average of 77 points per game in the six games without him early in the season, while they gave up on average 78.7 for the season. That's quite the falloff! 2 of those games, the defense without one of our worst defenders, allowed shooting percentages overall and from 3 of over 45%, while one of those games we allowed better than 50% from both. BJ isn't a strong defender, but this team overall had bigger issues playing defense than BJ alone. |
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Post by buppie05 on Mar 27, 2024 23:09:49 GMT -6
The Panthers ended up 8-10 versus peer competition with BJ. They were 5-3 without him against peer competition. Peer competition is every D1 opponent except sub 120 and 350 plus in the NET. Bart did sit BJ in the HL championship game for 10 minutes, mostly in the second half, even though BJ did not have any fouls. He also sat 8 minutes against NKU in the semifinal game. A one game swing in either record could result in a .500 record for games both with and without BJ. In other words, there is no real conclusive evidence that the team played better with BJ. Three of the peer competition wins without BJ were after Markeith was let go as well, so we were 2-3 without BJ but with Markeith. (though I show 1-3, but based on Cactus' numbers it would be 2-3) Meanwhile, we were 0-4 in peer competition games with both Markeith and BJ. You could argue that Markeith was actually a bigger part of the team playing poorly as we were 1-7 against peer competition with Markeith and 12-6 without. Did the team play better at times without BJ? Yes. Did the team play better at times with BJ? Yes. Does the team beat Detroit in the tourney without BJ? Unlikely. Would we have beaten Green Bay in the tourney on the road without BJ, where we were pretty bad? Again, unlikely. One could argue the same for the Northern Kentucky game, though it's not as clear-cut. For every game where the team appeared to have played better without BJ, there's at least one, if not a couple of games where the team likely played better with BJ. While the team played better in the final for a period of time without BJ, you can't discount BJ's contributions to get to that final game without cherry picking. Singling out one or two instances and making definitive conclusions based on them is not a good way to make good conclusions, and any statistician will tell you that. If that were the case, Fields should have been relegated to the bench based on a number of his early games. Sample size matters - or at least it should. BJ was the quickest Panther to score 1,000 points. He was the only Panther to win the Horizon League Player of the Week multiple times in a season in multiple seasons. He was the Horizon League Player of the Week 5 times - a Panther record, surpassing Dylan Page's 4. Dylan, Joah Tucker, Clay Tucker, Adrian Tigert, Von McDade, Ed McCants, Chad Angeli and BJ (in no particular order) are the greatest Panthers since entering Division 1 IMHO. Chris Hill and Shannon Smith would likely round out the top 10. GoD or some of the other old timers may have some others I've missed that could be added to the list, but this is a pretty solid list of the greatest to put on a Panther uniform. A good argument could be made that BJ should be in the top 5. BJ wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea perhaps, but I think we can Ram Das it now, and focus on the present. Wish BJ luck, and get excited about the awesome team we seem to be assembling for next year. BJ was the best player on 2 20 win Panther teams. He loved Milwaukee, and tried his best to get us to the dance. I’ll always appreciate him, and y’all should too. Top 5 Panther of all time? Tough to say. The only thing we can all agree on is that Joah Tucker is the GOAT Panther. Also, Ant’s Senior year may have catapulted him into the top 10 IMO. |
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Post by reginaldkdwight on Mar 27, 2024 23:22:52 GMT -6
A one game swing in either record could result in a .500 record for games both with and without BJ. In other words, there is no real conclusive evidence that the team played better with BJ. Three of the peer competition wins without BJ were after Markeith was let go as well, so we were 2-3 without BJ but with Markeith. (though I show 1-3, but based on Cactus' numbers it would be 2-3) Meanwhile, we were 0-4 in peer competition games with both Markeith and BJ. You could argue that Markeith was actually a bigger part of the team playing poorly as we were 1-7 against peer competition with Markeith and 12-6 without. Did the team play better at times without BJ? Yes. Did the team play better at times with BJ? Yes. Does the team beat Detroit in the tourney without BJ? Unlikely. Would we have beaten Green Bay in the tourney on the road without BJ, where we were pretty bad? Again, unlikely. One could argue the same for the Northern Kentucky game, though it's not as clear-cut. For every game where the team appeared to have played better without BJ, there's at least one, if not a couple of games where the team likely played better with BJ. While the team played better in the final for a period of time without BJ, you can't discount BJ's contributions to get to that final game without cherry picking. Singling out one or two instances and making definitive conclusions based on them is not a good way to make good conclusions, and any statistician will tell you that. If that were the case, Fields should have been relegated to the bench based on a number of his early games. Sample size matters - or at least it should. BJ was the quickest Panther to score 1,000 points. He was the only Panther to win the Horizon League Player of the Week multiple times in a season in multiple seasons. He was the Horizon League Player of the Week 5 times - a Panther record, surpassing Dylan Page's 4. Dylan, Joah Tucker, Clay Tucker, Adrian Tigert, Von McDade, Ed McCants, Chad Angeli and BJ (in no particular order) are the greatest Panthers since entering Division 1 IMHO. Chris Hill and Shannon Smith would likely round out the top 10. GoD or some of the other old timers may have some others I've missed that could be added to the list, but this is a pretty solid list of the greatest to put on a Panther uniform. A good argument could be made that BJ should be in the top 5. BJ wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea perhaps, but I think we can Ram Das it now, and focus on the present. Wish BJ luck, and get excited about the awesome team we seem to be assembling for next year. BJ was the best player on 2 20 win Panther teams. He loved Milwaukee, and tried his best to get us to the dance. I’ll always appreciate him, and y’all should too. Top 5 Panther of all time? Tough to say. The only thing we can all agree on is that Joah Tucker is the GOAT Panther. Also, Ant’s Senior year may have catapulted him into the top 10 IMO. Maybe if Clay Tucker never existed, but thats a debate for another day. |
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Post by buppie05 on Mar 27, 2024 23:23:04 GMT -6
LFG, Bart continuing to back up his claim from his introductory press conference back in 2022 where he said he was going to make it a priority to get local guys. LOVE this one LFG indeed! Welcome home JLJ. Stoked to have you on the team. Love to see how BL, a coach who has a knack for developing players, does with a high ceiling guy like this. |
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Post by TBone on Mar 27, 2024 23:29:35 GMT -6
Offensive wise sure, but he was a minus defender and I am not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. Oh and a lot of those guys listed got us to the mountaintop in a much better league. I've never argued BJ was anything but a minus defender, but the issues on the defensive side this year were not solely on BJ. Look at the points allowed in the six game stretch he was out. We were bad, as usual even with BJ out. A lot of those guys listed played together, meaning that they had quality people that could pick them up on an off night. Joah and Clay are already in, and it wouldn't surprise me if Ed makes it as well. Both Dylan and Adrian should receive strong consideration for the Hall as well. Name me one other player on this team that comes close to being an all-timer, or a Hall of Famer. They had three playing together, we have one. Take one of them away, and do we even get to the tournament? Take two away and we're likely middle of the pack. The Horizon today is nowhere near the league it was in the early 00's, but the team this year also had very little consistency from anyone outside of BJ. Pratt was the closest thing, and Fields came on strong late, but wasn't one of the three early on. Much more was expected of KP and EJ, and even Markeith this year, and they all underperformed based on expectations. BJ, on the other hand, did not. His statistics from an offensive perspective were better in most categories. One thing I think we can count on is that the players returning won't be taking the next season for granted this offseason, as coach implied some may have last year. |
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