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Post by bizzork on Feb 24, 2020 22:16:16 GMT -6
The Panther Dodgeball and Ultimate dynasties are a steamroller consuming everything in their path.
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Post by Duct_Tape_Pounce on Feb 24, 2020 22:26:07 GMT -6
Sure. Lavall Jordan is solid. Yet, if we making picks just on skin color is very poor. I kind of have to laugh sometimes when you all go around crowning LaVall. I liked him, too. But lets face facts (I know it's hard for so many of you): He was 11-24, with big assists from Alec Peters and Steve McClain in that HLT. If he were 9-24, you wouldn't glorify him one bit. And yes, I give Steve McClain credit. He's to us what Jay Cutler was to the Packers, practically a human victory cigar. LaVall continues to be successful, regardless of his coaching prowess (which I would rate MUCH higher than PBS), because he has the full support of the Butler machine behind him. NO Panthers coach has ever had that in the history of our university. Bo and Bruce's teams were kicked out of the K for dodgeball and ultimate frisbee even at the height of their powers. I disagree regarding LaVall Jordan. I went into that season thinking the Panthers would be lucky to get one or two Division I wins. Heck, I wasn’t sure we were going to beat Division III MSOE that year. Even before the Horizon League tournament, the Panthers had 4 Horizon League wins and a handful of other Division I wins. He did this with a starting lineup (to begin the year, at least) of one rotation player from the prior year, two players who didn’t see the court much at all in previous years, a backup graduate transfer from Stetson, and a freshman point guard who didn’t even finish his college career playing Division I basketball. He was a very good hire, and I think the Panthers made the right move to hire him over Otz. Not saying he was necessarily hired for all the right reasons, but I thought he really exceeded expectations even before the Horizon League tournament.
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Post by bizzork on Feb 24, 2020 23:07:34 GMT -6
Ryan, Pearl, Jeter, and Jordan were/are all coaches whose players improved significantly during the season. At this point, Baldwin is not in that category.
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Feb 24, 2020 23:12:47 GMT -6
I kind of have to laugh sometimes when you all go around crowning LaVall. I liked him, too. But lets face facts (I know it's hard for so many of you): He was 11-24, with big assists from Alec Peters and Steve McClain in that HLT. If he were 9-24, you wouldn't glorify him one bit. And yes, I give Steve McClain credit. He's to us what Jay Cutler was to the Packers, practically a human victory cigar. LaVall continues to be successful, regardless of his coaching prowess (which I would rate MUCH higher than PBS), because he has the full support of the Butler machine behind him. NO Panthers coach has ever had that in the history of our university. Bo and Bruce's teams were kicked out of the K for dodgeball and ultimate frisbee even at the height of their powers. Not saying he was necessarily hired for all the right reasons, but I thought he really exceeded expectations even before the Horizon League tournament. You might be the only person in the fanbase that feels that way. I am far from an optimistic fan in this Amanda Braun-created reality we live in, but there is no UNIVERSE that exists where I would ever be impressed with 4 Horizon League wins.
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Post by parkerj on Feb 24, 2020 23:24:29 GMT -6
Sure. Lavall Jordan is solid. Yet, if we making picks just on skin color is very poor. LaVall continues to be successful, regardless of his coaching prowess (which I would rate MUCH higher than PBS), because he has the full support of the Butler machine behind him. Soooo they just hated Brandon Miller then? Butler has one of the smaller budgets in the Big East. They're succeeding now because he's a good coach. Much like with Bo Ryan, his record here isn't what brought me to that conclusion.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Feb 25, 2020 7:45:33 GMT -6
LaVall continues to be successful, regardless of his coaching prowess (which I would rate MUCH higher than PBS), because he has the full support of the Butler machine behind him. Soooo they just hated Brandon Miller then? Butler has one of the smaller budgets in the Big East. They're succeeding now because he's a good coach. Much like with Bo Ryan, his record here isn't what brought me to that conclusion. I believe that Brandon Miller had/has some pretty serious personal problems and that's why he's no longer coaching. We really have to see how the rest of LJ's career plays out. Just when they appeared to be on the verge of something major this year, they've gone into a downward spiral in the last month. Always remember that the BU administration is a far bigger believer in basketball as an institutional engine than UWM, in MUCH the same way that Marquette is!
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Post by steveisback on Feb 25, 2020 9:24:06 GMT -6
Purely a hypothetical. In 20 20 hindsight who would we rather have, Jeter or Jordan? Jeter did not do much better his first year (on his own) after inheriting everything from Pearl though he had a bit more in the cupboard (not a lot) but more than Jordan did. (9-22) Jeter also had tailwinds behind him which he quickly doused with recruiting the likes of Flowers, Torre Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Leneal Harris, all candidates from the Presidential Medal of Freedom now that it was given to the likes of Limbaugh, but I digress....Saint Rob....oh well.....I would take Jordan. It would likely have worked out fine if not for the perfect storm. I guess the best answer would have been to give Jeter more extensions, maybe coach for life and we would never had to take a risk by trying to upgrade from one game over .500 in an 11 year D 1 span....
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Post by steveisback on Feb 25, 2020 9:25:15 GMT -6
Also waiting for Rob to get recognized by getting another D 1 job.....bet my 401 k that never happens. Unless Fran founds his own university like George Soros did.
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Feb 25, 2020 9:30:05 GMT -6
I really hope they find that cure for derangement someday...
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Post by steveisback on Feb 25, 2020 9:31:57 GMT -6
Agree...that loss of Jeter doomed us forever. that is the real JDS
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Post by BBFran on Feb 25, 2020 11:29:21 GMT -6
Steve and Cactus -- the last remaining holdouts who look at our 48-79 record since March of 2016 and are still convinced the problem is JETER!! My God, with our next loss we will have AVERAGED 20 losses a year! In THIS league!
I love both you guys but it's time you took the blinders off. Braun and the University made a terrible, tragic mistake when they fired him. The results since then have been entirely predictable, and the program's collapse is years from being turned around if that's even still possible. It certainly looks impossible to me unless there's a sweeping change on Downer Avenue. How do you build a championship program when the people who control it don't seem to care in the slightest about it?
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Post by parkerj on Feb 25, 2020 14:30:11 GMT -6
Also waiting for Rob to get recognized by getting another D 1 job.....bet my 401 k that never happens. Unless Fran founds his own university like George Soros did. You may be right, but I'd argue that'd have more to do with what small schools pay their coaches than anything. Jeter was making 250k at UNLV, and is presumably making more now. IUPUI was paying Jason Gardner less than 160K. Not a lot of people would agree to halve their salary to take a promotion.
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Post by panther9193 on Feb 25, 2020 19:02:01 GMT -6
Steve and Cactus -- the last remaining holdouts who look at our 48-79 record since March of 2016 and are still convinced the problem is JETER!! My God, with our next loss we will have AVERAGED 20 losses a year! In THIS league! I love both you guys but it's time you took the blinders off. Braun and the University made a terrible, tragic mistake when they fired him. The results since then have been entirely predictable, and the program's collapse is years from being turned around if that's even still possible. It certainly looks impossible to me unless there's a sweeping change on Downer Avenue. How do you build a championship program when the people who control it don't seem to care in the slightest about it? I don't think anyone said Jeter was the problem, but after 11 seasons and a .520 record of mediocrity, he certainly wasn't the solution either. Steve is exactly right. If it was such a mistake to fire him, one of the 350+ teams would've picked him up by now. The reason they haven't is not because of money. It's because the stats indicate he was an average head coach and teams looking for new coaches don't look for average ones (even if some on this board like to be average rather than taking the risk of being good). That being said, two things need to happen to go from average to good. Jettison the average personnel and replace them with good ones. We did the first part but to date, haven't been successful on the second part and there needs to be accountability for that. This is where the true problem lies. The last person at this university to have a vision for growing athletics was Nancy Zimpher. The downhill slide started when she left in 2003. Pearl was able to cover for it with his outstanding teams and personality but once he left, the university was exposed. The slide accelerated with one bad AD hire after another, including the Andy Geiger disaster. The people in place the last 10+ years are used to living off public university subsidies with little or no accountability because of lack of interest. They are comfortable. To make things worse, we seem to be in a conference of like schools, none seeming to have a serious interest in dominating and becoming better. The schools that didn't feel that way have left. The significant conference ranking drop over the past few years suppoets this. We have become a low major conference, I think by design, and we're a BAD team in that BAD conference. The best thing that could happen would be for the state legislature to start questioning both UWM and UWGB why taxpayers and students should continue to subsidize the athletic departments at a Division 1 level without concrete plans in place to grow the one revenue generating sport each has and then give them a timeline to do so. A fire needs to be lit under these people. More accurately, new people need to be put in place with a passion for growing the program and with real life experience regarding how to do it (i.e. a Pat Richter type person). Until there is accountability, I fear we will continue down the same path as we are.
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Post by parkerj on Feb 25, 2020 19:54:34 GMT -6
Steve is exactly right. If it was such a mistake to fire him, one of the 350+ teams would've picked him up by now. The reason they haven't is not because of money. It's because the stats indicate he was an average head coach and teams looking for new coaches don't look for average ones (even if some on this board like to be average rather than taking the risk of being good). Care to show your work? Here's a quick rundown of some of the salaries in the Summit League and a few other area mid-majors. I think Jeter's ability to find guys nobody else is looking at would allow him to do really well at a school like WIU, which might actually be making a coaching change...but considering they were uncertain about pulling the trigger last year because of his *whopping* salary, I think lil Pitino would need to get fired for RJ to consider that gig. Eastern Illinois: 160K North Dakota - 180K NDSU - 230K (This is why Ohio was able to take Saul Phillips) Omaha - 180K Purdue Fort Wayne - 175K South Dakota - 265K SDSU - 275K (This is why Wright State was able to take Scott Nagy...and he was making less than this) Western Illinois - 132K Southeast Missouri State - 175K SIU-Edwardsville - 187K Chicago State - 110K Billy Donlon (whose Horizon League record was 1 game different than Jeter's while their tenures overlapped) needed 350K to leave his B1G assistant job and take over Kansas City this year. Money likely plays a big role. (Also, are we really gonna sit here and pretend Jim Whitesell didn't just get the keys to a top mid-major this year? And Ray McCallum was a finalist at another!)
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Post by panther9193 on Feb 25, 2020 20:22:17 GMT -6
Steve is exactly right. If it was such a mistake to fire him, one of the 350+ teams would've picked him up by now. The reason they haven't is not because of money. It's because the stats indicate he was an average head coach and teams looking for new coaches don't look for average ones (even if some on this board like to be average rather than taking the risk of being good). Care to show your work? Here's a quick rundown of some of the salaries in the Summit League and a few other area mid-majors. I think Jeter's ability to find guys nobody else is looking at would allow him to do really well at a school like WIU, which might actually be making a coaching change...but considering they were uncertain about pulling the trigger last year because of his *whopping* salary, I think lil Pitino would need to get fired for RJ to consider that gig. Eastern Illinois: 160K North Dakota - 180K NDSU - 230K (This is why Ohio was able to take Saul Phillips) Omaha - 180K Purdue Fort Wayne - 175K South Dakota - 265K SDSU - 275K (This is why Wright State was able to take Scott Nagy...and he was making less than this) Western Illinois - 132K Southeast Missouri State - 175K SIU-Edwardsville - 187K Chicago State - 110K Billy Donlon (whose Horizon League record was 1 game different than Jeter's while their tenures overlapped) needed 350K to leave his B1G assistant job and take over Kansas City this year. Money likely plays a big role. (Also, are we really gonna sit here and pretend Jim Whitesell didn't just get the keys to a top mid-major this year? And Ray McCallum was a finalist at another!) I look at it the other way. Schools looking for new coaches don't typically focus ones with .500 career records as their first choice. Could another team go after Jeter as their coach sometime in the future. Sure. All I'm saying is if we made such a HUGE mistake in getting rid of him, another team would've picked him up the same year.
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