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Post by ghostofdylan on Dec 28, 2019 19:22:14 GMT -6
Looks and feels like 8-10 in the league and 13-17 overall.
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Post by PantherNation on Dec 29, 2019 21:32:56 GMT -6
8-10 in conference play would be pretty comparable to the Jeter era so we should all be pretty pleased with that result. And I was a big fan of Rob.
2005-06... 12-4 (1st in HL) - Pearl’s team 2006-07... 6-10 (7th in HL) 2007-08... 9-9 (5th in HL) 2008-09... 11-7 (5th in HL) 2009-10... 10-8 (4th in HL) 2010-11... 13-5 (1st in HL) - NIT 2011-12... 11-7 (3rd in HL) 2012-13... 3-13 (9th in HL) 2013-14... 7-9 (5th in HL) - NCAA Tournament 2014-15... 9-7 (5th in HL) - Postseason Ban 2015-16... 10-8 (5th in HL) - Jeter Fired
And let’s keep in mind that the one year we finished 1st in the conference (aside from 05-06), the season started with a 1-2 record in conference play with a 23 point loss at home to Cleveland State and a 24 point loss at Wright State. So let’s all let the season play out and see what happens before we write off this team.
Yes, things are rough but let’s not act like we have some sort of storied history here with our program. We have been (and currently are) a middle of the pack team in the Horizon League. Baldwin may not be the answer to get us in that top tier and Jeter certainly was not with the exception of a few good seasons. But in terms of consistency, it’s been an issue for the last 15 years.
Maybe one day we’ll find a coach who can fix that... but the reality is that as soon as we do, he’ll be gone shortly thereafter. That’s just the life of a mid-major.
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Post by steveisback on Dec 30, 2019 8:33:01 GMT -6
A few comments :
<In Jeter's defense that conference that we competed in was vastly superior to what it is now. Even teams like Cleveland State, UIC, Green Bay, Detroit were much better. Then add Butler, Valpo, Loyola etc.
<Now that being said I would take a situation like with Pearl where we achieved great things even though he inevitably moved on. If Braun would have been allowed to hire Otzenberger (sp) might have had something similar and would have been happy with that to achieve some great things and then follow the same formula after he would leave. The answer is not to settle and dream of mediocrity because somehow it is safer. Jeter was the safe pick way back when and would you rather have all the middle of the pack finishes per above or have someone who brings great fun and excitement to the program even if they move on. Would frankly rather have that than mediocre HL hell. Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all....
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Post by ghostofdylan on Dec 30, 2019 9:07:50 GMT -6
I eagerly anticipate a time when we're winning 20 games again and filling one-quarter of the seats in The Arena on a semi-regular basis ... and Steve's right: there are really no comparisons between this Horizon League and the one from 2001-02 to 2011-12. We've now been slogging around for 4 years too many ... and I expect that everyone agrees.
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Post by steveisback on Dec 30, 2019 9:28:18 GMT -6
ON a side note struggling mightily down low. Harrison Henderson is a slight notch above Olivia De Smedt!!!! Horrible. I attended the North Dakota game and thought Amir Allen looked solid and decent. He also had his moments last year. What is going on with him? Recently limited minutes but now he is literally not seeing the court at all. Going to be tough to finish even .500 in the league without his contributions IMO
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Post by ghostofdylan on Dec 30, 2019 9:37:21 GMT -6
Amir has really regressed from last year. I have no idea why.
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Post by 73withharoldlee on Dec 30, 2019 9:44:28 GMT -6
I agree with everything written. However I really think our coaching staff is better than many think. It takes more than three years to run a legitimate program and I hope that is what Baldwin is running. Success will come with time. Our problem has been a rotation of coaches and ADs. Stability is going to be key to success but it takes time. I am hoping Baldwin is committed to taking the program to the next level. That is an important statement. Pearl is a renegade and belongs where he is with donor money and people looking the other way. Jeter was over his head. He makes a good assistant. Jordan was a great hire and Butler knew it. I have been terribly wrong and perhaps a dreamer. It is fun to dream. We are one to two players away from being a top three Horizon League finish.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 20:18:37 GMT -6
Over his head? (he was no Wooden but Jeter was not in over his head by any means)
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Post by Spirit of Bruce on Dec 30, 2019 21:33:28 GMT -6
I agree with everything written. However I really think our coaching staff is better than many think. It takes more than three years to run a legitimate program and I hope that is what Baldwin is running. Success will come with time. Our problem has been a rotation of coaches and ADs. Stability is going to be key to success but it takes time. I am hoping Baldwin is committed to taking the program to the next level. That is an important statement. Pearl is a renegade and belongs where he is with donor money and people looking the other way. Jeter was over his head. He makes a good assistant. Jordan was a great hire and Butler knew it. I have been terribly wrong and perhaps a dreamer. It is fun to dream. We are one to two players away from being a top three Horizon League finish. The fact that you feel the need to STILL bag on Jeter, after 3.5 years of not even coming CLOSE to the standards Braun held him to when she fired him, shows the absolute and never-ending disregard for reality surrounding this program and UWM in general held by many. That same disregard for reality is how Mone continues to be Chancellor (when it is documented on video for the whole world to see he can't even pour a damn cup of coffee), is how the WORST AD in Division 1 got a contract extension until 2023, and how a far less than mediocre Women's basketball coach "recently got a 5 year extension" (quote from Lori Nickel's recent article) despite having a 2-16 record against UWGB and never coming close to the "Braun Standard" in 7 seasons.
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Post by Duct_Tape_Pounce on Jan 1, 2020 22:36:26 GMT -6
I thought I posted this in here, but I guess I didn't. My expectation for this team this year was to, at a bare minimum, get a home game in the Horizon League tournament this year, which would mean a 6th place finish or better. Given that this team now has Pat Baldwin's players, this should be a bare minimum for him, especially since he brought in 2 high major players who practiced with the team all year last year.
While I do think the team is slightly better than they were last year, it's not enough. And to add to that, I think the only reason they're any better is that they added some better players on the team this year (in particular, Te'Jon Lucas and Josh Thomas). There hasn't really been much growth in any of the other players this year over last year. It looks like the returning players regressed as a whole from last year. That speaks very poorly for the coaching, and any chance for further improvement this year. I know it was only one season where the team finished in last place, but the improvement seen in one off-season with Lavall Jordan (Brett Prahl and Brock Stull immediately come to mind) makes any improvements seen from any of the players on the team right now look very insignificant.
There are 16 games left in conference season, and two of their (likely) toughest games of the conference season are behind them, but it's not looking good right now. Hopefully, things will turn around like they did in 2010-2011, but it's getting tougher to believe in this team, and in particular, this coaching staff.
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Post by parkerj on Jan 2, 2020 0:04:10 GMT -6
8-10 in conference play would be pretty comparable to the Jeter era so we should all be pretty pleased with that result. And I was a big fan of Rob. 2005-06... 12-4 (1st in HL) - Pearl’s team 2006-07... 6-10 (7th in HL) 2007-08... 9-9 (5th in HL) 2008-09... 11-7 (5th in HL) 2009-10... 10-8 (4th in HL) 2010-11... 13-5 (1st in HL) - NIT 2011-12... 11-7 (3rd in HL) 2012-13... 3-13 (9th in HL) 2013-14... 7-9 (5th in HL) - NCAA Tournament 2014-15... 9-7 (5th in HL) - Postseason Ban 2015-16... 10-8 (5th in HL) - Jeter Fired And let’s keep in mind that the one year we finished 1st in the conference (aside from 05-06), the season started with a 1-2 record in conference play with a 23 point loss at home to Cleveland State and a 24 point loss at Wright State. So let’s all let the season play out and see what happens before we write off this team. Yes, things are rough but let’s not act like we have some sort of storied history here with our program. We have been (and currently are) a middle of the pack team in the Horizon League. Baldwin may not be the answer to get us in that top tier and Jeter certainly was not with the exception of a few good seasons. But in terms of consistency, it’s been an issue for the last 15 years. Maybe one day we’ll find a coach who can fix that... but the reality is that as soon as we do, he’ll be gone shortly thereafter. That’s just the life of a mid-major. Not sure I'm with you there. A quick look at that list and I'm thinking 5th place is about normal for us (in a much stronger HL) IMO, things will need to change for this team to do better than 7th and I would've LOVED our top 3 guards on any of those Jeter teams. That result in *this* HL is disgusting EDIT: Looked at KenPom rankings we've had since Jeter was hired (as performance relative to the rest of D-I was one of the metrics...technically AB was talking RPI, but that's gone by the wayside so whatever) 2020 - 247 2019 - 296 2018 - 196 2017 - 259 JETER 2016 - 114….3 spots out of first in the present HL and they fired him for…him a decade earlier 2015 - 215 2014 - 168 2013 - 301 2012 - 144 2011 - 138 2010 - 130 2009 - 153 2008 - 167 2007 - 210 (this is the 9-22 year…one season since Jeter was fired has *actually* been better than the 9-22 year…….and it's a pretty minor difference) 2006 - 62 <Now that being said I would take a situation like with Pearl where we achieved great things even though he inevitably moved on. If Braun would have been allowed to hire Otzenberger (sp) might have had something similar and would have been happy with that to achieve some great things and then follow the same formula after he would leave. The answer is not to settle and dream of mediocrity because somehow it is safer. Jeter was the safe pick way back when and would you rather have all the middle of the pack finishes per above or have someone who brings great fun and excitement to the program even if they move on. Would frankly rather have that than mediocre HL hell. Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.... And I completely disagree with this as well. The same season that Jeter was fired, Billy Donlon got the boot at WSU despite better results during their overlapping tenures. It should've been an even bigger deal than firing Jeter was...then WSU hired Scott Nagy, and the rest is history (FWIW, Donlon has already gone on to prove he's a pretty damn good mid-major HC) A HUGE chunk of Otzelberger's success is due to Nagy, who is the one that actually brough Mike Daum to campus. If David Jenkins is the undisputed best player on SDSU, Otzelberger is still coaching there.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Jan 2, 2020 7:30:03 GMT -6
Donlon had a better tenure than Jeter? Wright State never went to the NCAA or NIT under Donlon. We went to two NCAAs under Jeter, once with a non-inherited team, and once to the NIT. In their most important meeting, Jeter walked away victorious ... on Donlon's homecourt. Jeter had a 113-95 record vs. conference opponents; Donlon's record was 61-55 ...
Thought for the day: if only for esoteric reasons, Friday's game is a must-win.
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Post by parkerj on Jan 2, 2020 12:33:09 GMT -6
Ha, so I didn't realize it (I think because Jeter's best teams were during Donlon's first two years when BD had some of his weaker teams) but they actually had the same conference record when they were there together...KenPom average was 161.5 for BD and 180 for Jeter, so you're right that's a negligible difference
Either way it seems BD came out of it held in a higher regard, getting a job at a Michigan team 3 years removed from playing for a natty instead of the only school whose 2016 dumpster fire could match ours.
But anyway, my whole point there (which this arguably strengthens) is that you don't fire a "pretty damn good mid-major HC" without a Scott Nagy lined up. I don't believe for a second Otz is a Scott Nagy.
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