Lutzow10
Freshman
MILWAUKEE PROUD - PANTHER STRONG
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Post by Lutzow10 on Aug 14, 2012 8:06:35 GMT -6
He talked about dropping baseball
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Post by freshmilwaukee on Aug 14, 2012 17:06:11 GMT -6
When I was a student there I put together a proposal that allowed the baseball program to nullify its expenses provided it had a $5-10 million dollar facility. The facility was in the works and the plug got pulled because a basketball coach was worried about getting his facility after the baseball and track programs. As I see we are nowhere better 3 years later and now we want hockey, which is more expensive than baseball. It's also more expensive than basketball. A sport which is supposed to be our flagship which isn't garnering the fan support required to make it a moneymaker. We were 10 million dollars in debt when I was there and there is little doubt in my mind that has grown to maybe 12-14 million since I have been gone. Overall until we have basketball on solid ground making money the department is in no shape to fully fund a hockey program. Look at what it cost Penn State to start their hockey program. www.gopsusports.com/blog/2012/04/pegula-ice-arena-becoming-a-reality.html$88 million for facility and start of men's and women's program has ballooned to $102 million. Last I checked we can't even put together a facility plan and get started raising $30 million for our basketball arena. At the end of the day we need to get our financial house in order and make money with the programs we have than conjure up asinine dreams that are significantly in the future. I understand spend money to make money, but we are in debt first and foremost... Baseball 11.7 scholarships, Hockey 18 scholarships - More financial aid. Budget in general - Baseball max 35 student athletes, 2 full time staff, athletic trainer. Hockey max 30 student athletes, probably require 3 full time coaches to be competitive, dedicated equipment person, athletic trainer. Travel with hockey equipment is going to be more expensive than baseball. I've seen how division I hockey programs travel and pack, way more stuff than baseball - and heavier so airline fees. I would love hockey but the $$$$ don't add up.
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Post by PantherU on Aug 14, 2012 17:49:25 GMT -6
For one thing, I'm sick and damn tired of proving exactly why Title IX isn't an issue for any sport outside of football, and then reading Johnny-come-lately's to the argument continue to bring it up.
This is it: Title IX rule: scholarship ratio must be within 5% of overall student body. UWM has 51% female, so 46% of scholarships have to be for women. MKE has 79 scholarships for women, 55.2 for men. We are over-compliant. There is no need to add a god damn thing on the women's side for any sport except football, which I've also explained would be taken care of by changing baseball to softball and swinging 11.7 men's scholarships to 12 women's scholarships.
Ice hockey would not need anything on the women's side. If they added women's ice hockey, which I'm sure they would if a men's team were imminent, we would continue to be in extreme compliance for rules brought about by Title IX.
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Post by illwauk on Aug 14, 2012 18:13:50 GMT -6
I don't think you can quite compare our hypothetical program to Penn State's. For one, they're building a facility separate from their basketball arena, our hockey program would play in the arena we're already building.
Secondly, Penn State is starting a men's and women's program, we'd only be starting one for the men.
Thirdly, hockey pulls a lot more donations than baseball, especially in this part of the country. Jimmy Lemke even said he spoke to some of Pucky Badgers' biggest benefactors who said they'd gladly pledge their support for a Milwaukee hockey program if we started one.
Lastly, there's really no reason for you to throw around language like "asinine dreams." Was the baseball facility you wanted an asinine dream? I think everyone can agree that the first point of Milwaukee athletics is to get its finances in order, but guess what? We're in this mess because we were short-sighted and banked our financial stability on a single program that is, at best, the #3 option of its kind in our city. Now our flagship program is back to playing in a D3-caliber facility. Given our recent history, I wouldn't call it "asinine" to want more than one basket to put our eggs in.
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Post by freshmilwaukee on Aug 14, 2012 18:54:48 GMT -6
The baseball facility was tangible. I sat in Bud Selig's office as he gave us his blessing and support with the Urban Youth Academy staff. Myself, Koonce, Jimmie Lee Solomon and Darrell Miller all wanted this project to happen. The Brewers foundation staff with Cecelia Gore was ready to go. We need to have tangible dreams that can happen and don't have to wait several years.
The site plan to build a basketball facility on the Norris Health Center site while still connecting in some regard to facilities at Klotsche was a 200X200 plan. A hockey rink is 200X85 so you're already over the length of the site plan. So where do you propose we put this multipurpose venue for basketball/hockey?
To create financial stability we need to enhance our opportunities that we already have. By raising the funds and building the basketball facility we will have a multipurpose venue that we manage and can bring in non-sporting events to add to the student experience while creating new revenue streams.
I agree with you that our problem is we built our athletic department on an upside down pyramid. Jimmy can attest that I've been saying this since I was in school. We have one sport supporting 14, terrible approach in any business. We need to have men's basketball in the center creating the foundation. Surround them with 3 or 4 sports that will be able to generate money with proper support. Overall we need to do a better job marketing and branding our programs. To be successful it comes down to creating affordable but in demand tickets to events. It is a challenge when you are one of a handful of sporting options in a midwest state that loves sports. Reality is we are second or third fiddle of college teams in the state.
I just don't see in the immediate future (3 years) how hockey fits into the financial plans. By creating new facilities for the sports we have, we increase the opportunity for new revenue streams we've never had.
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Post by illwauk on Aug 14, 2012 19:24:10 GMT -6
I'd imagine the hockey arena could go where ever your baseball stadium was supposed to. To answer your question, the Wisconsin Paperboard Company site has been floated around here a number of times due to it being well known that the WPC wants out of there and being near our newest dorm towers. Barring that, there's always eminent domain... I know someone said that only applies to Madison, but if the "University of Wisconsin" truly is one institution with 12 campuses, then there's no reason it wouldn't apply to Milwaukee as well. Anyway, I'm genuinely curious about this baseball stadium now. Where exactly was it supposed to go? And how big was it supposed to be capacity-wise?
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Post by freshmilwaukee on Aug 14, 2012 19:49:19 GMT -6
Lincoln Park - Henry Aaron Field. Built exactly on top of the current field. About 2,000 seats with support facilities for the Urban Youth Academy and the baseball program. There would be a 300m indoor track & 100 yards of turf which would eliminate the need for the track and baseball practices in Klotsche. This building would be built on the old pool which has since been filled and demolished. It would be a Partnership as follows: UWM would maintain the athletic facilities, UWM would provide tutoring and academic support services (school of education partnership) to the neighborhood kids participating in MLB's Urban Youth Academy, MLB & Milwaukee Brewers would assist with financial support for building and continued support of MLB Urban Youth Academy. Milwaukee County Parks would maintain the grounds as they do now, plus they have the water park on the property.
This would alleviate most of the multipurpose nature of Klotsche Arena and allow for that space to be reconfigured into a varsity practice facility for MBB, WBB, & VB. With Klotsche being adjoined to the new arena the locker room space could be utilized as built in the Pavilion.
I also did a proposal for these facilities on the WPC site because 3 years ago, Jimmy and I thought they'd be moving soon too.
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Post by illwauk on Aug 15, 2012 1:44:32 GMT -6
I won't argue that we'd be better off now if that facility had been built, but I also can't say I feel too bad about baseball not having a permanent home in Glendale. When you play your home games so far away that the local MLB club is literally just a couple minutes' further drive for most of your target fanbase (students and eastside alums), you can forget about drawing anyone but the players' girlfriends and family.
I think for baseball to have any chance at becoming an asset to Milwaukee athletics, it has to be on the Eastside where there could actually be a market for the type of baseball fan experience you find in Wrigleyville (or pretty much any MLB city that has its park downtown) where fans can empty into the nearest bar district after the game and turn the street into a de facto post-game party. Of course, even that would hinge on better marketing than we've had... and probably more importantly... whether or not Wisconsin's notoriously unpredictable April and May weather is conducive to fans being willing to sit outdoors for two hours.
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Post by PantherU on Aug 15, 2012 7:48:19 GMT -6
Here are a few things I'd like to introduce to this discussion:
- When comparing baseball to ice hockey or football or anything, remember that you are comparing apples to oranges. Not between revenue and non-revenue, but between an established program that we already have and one that we would like to have.
- Baseball will likely never be a highly successful sport, barring Miller Park as a permanent home. Even then it's a stretch. The sport just doesn't have national success from teams in the north, Kent State and Stony Brook aside. There are few nationwide sports that are as skewed away from one region as baseball. Lacrosse is east-coast heavy because 90% of the teams are east of the Appalachian mountains. Baseball is a southern sport because the weather down there vastly favors those programs in recruiting and training.
- Fresh's plan for the youth baseball facility, driven largely by him as Koonce's student assistant and de facto Associate AD, should already be here. I disagree that Jeter got in the way. Koonce got in his own way with his plan to remove Jeter and Botham, which would have handicapped this program for over a decade and thankfully was blocked by our most influtential donors. The baseball facility was the biggest casualty in Koonce's departure, and had he left basketball alone or tried to man up and fire someone instead of trying an underhanded tactic - I guess this is where Fresh gets that Jeter stopped it - then he would have been able to stick around and finish the job. Of course, there were non-basketball personnel that Fresh had to contend with. It was an altogether toxic time for athletics, and I for one am happy that we're at least all on the same page.
- Baseball would be an immediate asset with Fresh's facility. The whole point was to deliver baseball a home stadium and track and baseball a practice facility (we can forget the attachment on the other side of the practice facility haha) while also making waves in fixing our financial issues. Taking baseball off of basketball's back would alleviate the pressure on basketball by giving it the Klotsche space as a basketball/volleyball space (helping practice concerns) and the money used in the past to support baseball back into the basketball program.
- Personally, I hope that someone (okay it's going to be me) will promote the idea of hiring Fresh back as a full employee to make this baseball stadium happen. His plans were pretty amazing and well-thought out, and though he was Koonce's assistant, he was certainly someone who cared more about this program than most people in the department. Alumni need to be brought here.
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Post by illwauk on Aug 15, 2012 12:00:16 GMT -6
- Baseball would be an immediate asset with Fresh's facility. The whole point was to deliver baseball a home stadium and track and baseball a practice facility (we can forget the attachment on the other side of the practice facility haha) while also making waves in fixing our financial issues. Taking baseball off of basketball's back would alleviate the pressure on basketball by giving it the Klotsche space as a basketball/volleyball space (helping practice concerns) and the money used in the past to support baseball back into the basketball program. This is one of the two main reasons why I've been advocating the dropping of baseball and the addition of another sport. I honestly don't see the point of keeping it around when... despite being Wisconsin's only D1 program of its kind... it's little more than a nuisance that needs to be shoved out of the way for other sports (basketball in particular). Sticking them out in Glendale permanently pretty much assures that they'll never be anything else. If baseball is to be part of our athletic department, it needs to at least try and take advantage of the fact that we're in one of the greatest baseball cities in America and get students and fans to actually come out to games. If there is a market for college baseball in the Milwaukee area, it's probably not in Glendale... especially not now that North Shore dwellers have the Chinooks. - Baseball will likely never be a highly successful sport, barring Miller Park as a permanent home. Even then it's a stretch. The sport just doesn't have national success from teams in the north, Kent State and Stony Brook aside. There are few nationwide sports that are as skewed away from one region as baseball. Lacrosse is east-coast heavy because 90% of the teams are east of the Appalachian mountains. Baseball is a southern sport because the weather down there vastly favors those programs in recruiting and training. This would be the other main reason. I just looked up NCAA baseball attendance figures for 2010 (the most recent year they were available: fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/baseball_RB/2011/Attendance.pdf) and only one program in the Upper Midwest... Michigan at #42 overall with 1,278 fans per game... was even ranked in the top 50. Michigan has one of the best supported athletic departments in the country, plays a good 30 miles from the nearest MLB club; and this was a relatively successful year for Wolverine baseball (35-22, 2nd in the Big Ten). If this is the best Michigan can do, what chance does Milwaukee have? Now compare that to the most recent attendance figures for hockey (http://www.uscho.com/stats/attendance/division-i-men/2011-2012/) where 6 of the top 11 schools... including the top 3... were in the Upper Midwest. As much as baseball skews south and west, hockey skews north... particularly the Upper Midwest and New England. If we didn't already have baseball and had to choose between it and hockey for a new program, the decision would be a no-brainer. - Personally, I hope that someone (okay it's going to be me) will promote the idea of hiring Fresh back as a full employee to make this baseball stadium happen. His plans were pretty amazing and well-thought out, and though he was Koonce's assistant, he was certainly someone who cared more about this program than most people in the department. Alumni need to be brought here. I might disagree with some of his ideas, but I won't argue that our athletic department would be a whole hell of a lot better off if more people like him were around.
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