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Post by FTA1982 on Mar 14, 2010 20:30:48 GMT -6
Besides, the Horizon League is poised to be next season's Atlantic 10. UWM, Wright State, Green Bay, Cleveland State, and Detroit were all very young this season -- neither Cleveland State nor Detroit had a senior anywhere on their rosters -- and four of those teams won 20 games. I'd be surprised if CSU finished with more than 6 conference losses, and shocked if the Horizon League finished with fewer than six 20-win teams. Let me know when 3 teams from the Horizon win 25 plus games. I don't think that has ever happened in this league. Edit: All with top 25 RPI as the A10 has. The competition is rising to Butler's level. If everyone in the Horizon League were sinking, then maybe there would be a point. But this is one of the better mid-major conferences in the country, so the point is moot. Rising to Butler's level? Butler went 18-0 and a whole 5 games ahead the 2nd place team. Plus Butler loses only one senior probably the 4th best player on the team as opposed to UWM losing their two best.
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Post by gman2 on Mar 14, 2010 20:47:26 GMT -6
UWM has to replace 3 of their top players next year, don't forget Averkamp. It's hard to replace a player like Averkamp.
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Post by motowntitan on Mar 15, 2010 6:33:10 GMT -6
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Post by motowntitan on Mar 15, 2010 6:48:27 GMT -6
On the topic of the original post- No one will leave or enter the Horizon until the Big 11 makes it's move.
The talk is that the Big11 could add from 1 to 3 teams.
IF they add 3 teams (likely), and IF they pillage the Big East (also likely) - My opinion is that it will cause major conference shifts.
My own theory is that the Big East would "break up"- the Football/Basketball schools would become the new Big East. The basketball only schools (with maybe some exceptions) would almost be "forced" from the conference.
Then the dominoes fall- schools like Marquette & Depaul MAY need a new conference- who better to go to than the A10. That's when the musical chairs begins.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a Midwest version of private basketball-only schools- Marquette, Depaul, Dayton, Xavier, etc.
Again, IF this happens- I think any new conferences would be formed more out of necessity, than the schools wanting to switch conferences.
Until then, no one (including Butler) is leaving the Horizon.
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Post by JG Panthers on Mar 15, 2010 7:28:43 GMT -6
No disrespect Motown...For the sake of the argument, Detroit's name wasn't brought up, though it is certainly arguable that they have a better recruiting class than Butler today. I'll still side with Butler if I must choose, though I could very well change my tune at the next signing day. McCallum has been very impressive in his ability to lure talented players to his program. I'd like to see us pursue a transfer here and there... Guys like Eli Holman, Chase Simon, Xavier Keeling, Brandon Wood, Cory Johnson, and in our past - Ed McCants, Joah Tucker, and Jason McCoy, can really come into their own when given a second chance. Though that's certainly not the only way to build a mid-major program (*ahem* Butler)
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Post by JG Panthers on Mar 15, 2010 7:30:06 GMT -6
On the topic of the original post- No one will leave or enter the Horizon until the Big 11 makes it's move. The talk is that the Big11 could add from 1 to 3 teams. IF they add 3 teams (likely), and IF they pillage the Big East (also likely) - My opinion is that it will cause major conference shifts. My own theory is that the Big East would "break up"- the Football/Basketball schools would become the new Big East. The basketball only schools (with maybe some exceptions) would almost be "forced" from the conference. Then the dominoes fall- schools like Marquette & Depaul MAY need a new conference- who better to go to than the A10. That's when the musical chairs begins. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Midwest version of private basketball-only schools- Marquette, Depaul, Dayton, Xavier, etc. Again, IF this happens- I think any new conferences would be formed more out of necessity, than the schools wanting to switch conferences. Until then, no one (including Butler) is leaving the Horizon. Very good points motown. I could definitely see this happening one day...in the semi-near future...though I won't count on it.
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Post by repoman on Mar 15, 2010 11:22:36 GMT -6
Butler are out of our league and if I were the AD there I'd be looking for any way to join a power conference.
You don't think Butler would be better for the Big East than DePaul, Providence, or St. Johns?
Everyone thought it would take Marquette years to be competitive in the Big East and everyone was wrong. They were competitive right away and there is no reason to think that Butler wouldn't be competitive if they were in a better conference. They also would probably attract better players because of increased exposure.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Mar 15, 2010 12:32:30 GMT -6
I can't underscore enough what a great advantage it is for Butler to be located in the same city as the Horizon League headquarters. If the Bulldogs were to change conferences, would John LeCrone and the league office do the same and leave the rest of us behind? That would leave nine of us without a league to call home.
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Post by motowntitan on Mar 15, 2010 12:53:47 GMT -6
Butler are out of our league and if I were the AD there I'd be looking for any way to join a power conference. You don't think Butler would be better for the Big East than DePaul, Providence, or St. Johns? Everyone thought it would take Marquette years to be competitive in the Big East and everyone was wrong. They were competitive right away and there is no reason to think that Butler wouldn't be competitive if they were in a better conference. They also would probably attract better players because of increased exposure. Repoman, Please re-read my post. There are no league openings anywhere right now. So, even if Butler is out of our league (1 HL Tournament champ in 4 years? ), no one is asking them- They are enjoying their status of a Big Fish in a Small Pond right now. All leagues are at status quo until the Big Ten makes it move(s). IF the Big Ten takes away 3 teams from the Big East, the Big East will implode- thus creating a game of musical chairs. IF Marquette and DePaul are left on the outside of the New Big East, look for them to turn around and raid the A-10. If they A-10 gets raided, look for them to raid the MVC and/or Horizon, etc etc. Also- Look at ghostofdylan's post as well. Even if you don't believe in conspiracy theories, ramblermania has a great post on the history/linkage of Butler and the Horizon League.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 15, 2010 12:57:15 GMT -6
The problem with your Big East, Titan, is that the name and rights to the Big East are owned by the schools that made up the original conference - mostly the schools on the basketball side of the deal.
Ed McCants counts as a Juco, as he went that route after leaving Northwestern.
Honestly, what we all need to realize is that the conference shift coming is going to be the biggest of all-time, and this is why:
The boon of the past 20 years has grown the amount of conferences big time. There are 347 D-I schools, 120 of which are FBS. The amount is ridiculous.
To take full advantage of TV money, the conferences are looking to get to that 12-football team plateau. To capitalize on the Big East's success as a basketball conference, sending nearly 10 teams to the dance, the high-major conferences are considering bumping up to 16.
For a school at our level to be in good position, they need to have a good basketball program and spend on it, a la Butler/Xavier/Dayton. To be in the best position possible, a school that has a great football program is in great position for a move up, such as Utah or BYU. That way, a school at our level can get there.
The first move is at least 2 years away. By the end of this decade, the shift will not be complete. It's going to be a several-years process. The last conference shift took three years (03-05) and will likely be only about half the size as this one.
Look at what schools did to position themselves for advancement! Marquette started dumping buckets of cash into basketball. USF got football in 1997, and upped the ante every year until they were accepted in 2003 for movement to the Big East in 2005. At the tail end of the moves, they're geographical (C-USA becoming mainly southern and football-heavy) or talent level (Valpo dominates the Mid-Con and moves to Horizon). In fact, Valpo was the last move of this shift. The recent movement of new D-I schools to Summit (NDSU/SDSU) is based on finding them a temporary home. Don't expect NDSU to be in the Summit in 2020.
The fact of the matter is, there's too much money to be made and too many school reputations to boost for each of the major conferences NOT to jump to 16 teams. The pressure is for the Big 10 to go to 12.
Why is the pressure there? It's about the money accrued from playing a lucrative conference championship game. So that reason, money, will be the same reason for the Big 10 to jump to 16 - UNITS.
For those of you who do not know what a unit is, it's just under $1 million. That $900,000+ is given to every conference that gets an at-large bid to the NCAA Tournament, as well as every victory in the tournament. So, a team that gets an at-large and makes it to the final four gains their conference 5 units, or nearly $5 million. That money is then dispersed evenly among every school in the conference over six years.
Now do you see? The Big East racked up 19 units last season, which ends up being over $18 million. That money is dispersed among the 16 BIG EAST schools evenly over six years. So, over the next six years, each school in the Big East will receive $1.125 million from the 2009 NCAA Tournament alone. In case you're wondering, that's $187,500 per year just for being a member of the Big East in 2009.
Now you see why this is going to happen? It's not an if, it's a when. I'm actually surprised the pressure isn't to go from 11 to 16 right now. It's a relatively new concept, so I understand, but the fact is there is too much money to be made from having a super-conference.
Everyone thought the Big East was going to fold, or dissect. And it very well might still. But the conference has shown that the more schools you have, the more powerhouses you have, which means more teams going deeper in the tournament. We're talking major money here.
I don't think the conference splits because the basketball schools, for the most part, have done their job and gone deep in the tournament. The split very well might happen, if, say, the Big East experiences a couple down years where they get 5 at-large teams and don't send anyone to the Final Four. If that happens, the football schools that share TV money for football games with the basketball schools will get annoyed that the other half isn't being shared. Plus, Providence/Seton Hall/St. John's/DePaul have all proven to be marginally successful to downright terrible in basketball, which hasn't helped the case of the basketball schools. But as long as Villanova, Georgetown, and Marquette are bringing $ to the table, the conference stays together.
I'll venture a guess and say that by 2020, we'll have a good idea where we stand. Final moves on conferences can happen between 7-10 years from now, so we've got time.
The problem is we don't have football, and we're not currently in position to make a move in that all-important department. The best thing for Milwaukee Athletics to do, right now, is sink their money into men's basketball while keeping the rest of the sports at the class of the Horizon League; women's soccer, volleyball and track are model sports that do a lot with a little in the way of money.
The Panthers need to invest in men's basketball while also realizing that every school that recognizes what is going on will also be investing in men's basketball.
The basketball arena is of the utmost importance.
Any division within the Athletic Department or the fan base needs to be put aside for the greater good of Milwaukee Athletics. We need to get on one page. Milwaukee Panthers as the name. Basketball on-campus in a sparkling new arena. Investment in a baseball stadium, but mainly as an opportunity for them to become somewhat self-sufficient. Basketball has to come first. I love Panther Soccer, but the fact of the matter is men's basketball is what will drive us towards a better future.
Once basketball is secure on-campus, and we're out of debt, that's when you pounce on football. It doesn't matter if it's 5 years from now or 15, the second we are reasonably able to add football without compromising men's basketball or the general working order of the department, we need to do it. Football is our ticket to the big show, and we need to realize that if we want a better future. Is it the only way? No. Is it the best way? Yes.
Let's do it. It starts with a Milwaukee Panthers-wide group. Calipari was right. It takes a village. And every one of us needs to do our part.
Marketing should be blitzed for next season big-time. Go for broke, make it so someone can't sneeze without reading Milwaukee Panthers on their tissue. To get the city to take ownership, we need to take ownership of the city. Plaster the billboards, engage the community, ask them to embrace us by embracing them. Doing this, coupled with a good team, will increase our attendance a lot better than the team alone.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 15, 2010 12:58:57 GMT -6
I would argue that the Big East doesn't have three schools that the Big 10 would want. Rutgers, Pitt and who? Syracuse? Mizzou and Texas are far better candidates than the rest of the Big East.
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Post by motowntitan on Mar 16, 2010 10:22:55 GMT -6
Black Panther MKE, Those are all great points. But again, we are hearing in our part of the Big Ten world that they are indeed looking to go up to 14. Pitt & West Virginia are the most consistent names being mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised to see Louisville or even Cinci mentioned soon enough. I do know that Mizzou was mentioned early on, and Texas tried to invite themselves. However, I have to disagree with one of your key points- the timeframe. The Big Ten plans to study expansion within the next 12-18 months. www.nytimes.com/2010/01/30/sports/30bigten.htmlMy point about the time table is that some of the schools (Big East/A-10/CUSA/MVC) should be having private discussions among themselves to at least have some kind of contingent plans in place. For example, Marquette and DePaul should, at the very least, consider they may be left without a seat when the music stops. Given they are both private smaller non-football schools- they may have to be the cornerstone of a new smaller mid-western conference.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 16, 2010 11:09:14 GMT -6
What our schools need to do is prepare.
As large, 32,000 student state school with one D-I football program in the state, I know what direction we need to work towards.
The key word is "Study." They want to study expansion, not have a team in place in 12 months. The team won't join for at least 3 years.
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Post by tom22 on Mar 1, 2019 23:14:01 GMT -6
The notion of UWM ever going to the Big Ten is a joke. So is the notion of Butler going to the Big East. This is a very interesting thread! Pretty amazing to see how Butler did just that - jumped right up to the Atlantic 10 and then quickly right on to the Big East. Some of the analysis and predictions written up on the second page of the thread is amazingly accurate.
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Post by Pantherholic on Mar 2, 2019 8:51:04 GMT -6
Any division within the Athletic Department or the fan base needs to be put aside for the greater good of Milwaukee Athletics. We need to get on one page.
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