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Post by Pounce Needs Pals on Oct 31, 2014 7:03:42 GMT -6
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Post by BBFran on Oct 31, 2014 9:27:37 GMT -6
Call me cynical but I smell a rat. My office window directly overlooks the JS site, the Panther Arena and the Bradley Center. I'm looking at all three right now. There is no way an arena with the footprint of the BC can fit on the JS site alone. That site is substantially smaller than the BC site. If you reconfigured an arena vertically and built it edge to edge from street to street -- 3rd to 4th, State to Kilbourn, and buried half of it, so that the upper tiers of the auditorium well above street level might actually have to extend over those surrounding streets, I suppose you might shoehorn a reduced footprint into this site. But I truly doubt there would be any place for a plaza or grand entrance, and I can't imagine a new arena being built without that in this age.
My concern is that this could be the camel's nose in the tent. They cut a deal with the JS, then drip by drip -- with the JS leading the charge, of course, to protect its economic interest in the deal -- the narrative begins to form that the engineering and design is proving too complicated and expensive because of the site limitations and it would all be so much easier if the arena site could span 4th street. Bye bye Milwaukee Panther Arena. If you want precedent go back to the earliest days of the talk about replacing County Stadium. Bud Selig, in his most brilliant move ever, announces that the Brewers will build a new stadium on their own dime. By doing so, he takes full command of the planning, destroying any chance for a downtown stadium like has been built in every other major league city. And by the time we're actually building a new baseball stadium in the valley, where there is no hope of leveraged development, the whole cost is on the taxpayers anyway.
Fool me once...
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Post by Super King on Oct 31, 2014 14:57:19 GMT -6
This, in general, is by far the smartest and most cost-effective method of building any stadium. Many of the most renowned old college football stadiums are built into the ground, including Kinnick and Camp Randall, because it allows for greater capacity while keeping material costs down and allowing for greater structural integrity. It's how the Nutter Center was built as well. However, and this is one thing modern Americans hate, it makes the building less physically impressive and large. So I don't know how it'll fly in the NBA. It also won't make the building any less wide, and I don't think it can fit in the JS site without getting rid of one of the streets.
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Post by PantherU on Oct 31, 2014 15:06:49 GMT -6
Such buildings are also considerably easier to heat, which is a balls-huge cost.
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Post by Super King on Oct 31, 2014 15:32:11 GMT -6
I think it's obvious at this point what the plan is. It will take a concerted effort from the universities and their respective important donors to pressure the Bucks into choosing a different site.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Oct 31, 2014 19:00:00 GMT -6
I realize that sentimentality has little place in these discussions, but The Arena feels like a good book, a fireside sofa and a cup of hot chocolate on a cold winter's night.
I grew up going to Bucks and Marquette games there and watched the Panthers ascend into relevancy at the place. Its lobby has an unmistakable smell, a good smell, like burning leaves on a country walk in the fall or the Gingerbread House at the old Capitol Court.
It's a friendly face, an old friend and a big part of this city's soul.
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Post by panther9193 on Nov 1, 2014 19:45:26 GMT -6
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Post by Duct_Tape_Pounce on Nov 1, 2014 23:25:47 GMT -6
I honestly don't know how this all works, but it seems to me that Lasry and Edens would want to have the only arena in town. If they have the only arena in town, the Wave is probably gone, and they can charge whatever rent they want to the Admirals and Golden Eagles. If the Admirals don't want to or simply can't pay the rent, the Bucks would be ok with that... after all, the winter sports entertainment budget would only be spread between 3 teams (one of which would be playing at a 1970s Division III gym until they're actually kicked out of any respectable Division I conference) instead of 5. This has nothing to do with "rejuvenating downtown"... if it did, they would realize that having the Panthers and Wave downtown would be better for downtown than having the Bucks' arena in a location that is 2 blocks "better" than the least expensive and most convenient location. There is a disincentive for the Bucks' owners to support a new arena of 6,000 - 8,000 seats for the Panthers, Wave, potentially the Admirals, etc., so color me extremely doubtful that they would even consider doing that without being strong armed. Beyond that, could you imagine the outrage that would occur if taxpayers have to pay $100 - $200 million for the Bucks' arena, while the owners donate $40 million for a new Panther/Wave arena? I can see the general public demanding to know why the owners are making taxpayers pay for the new Bucks arena while they're spending a huge chunk on a smaller arena?
This all leads me to believe that the WCD and Gimbel are the Panthers' (and Wave's) only real hope to keep a reasonable home downtown. Perhaps I'm being dramatic here, but I'm doubtful the Horizon League will not allow the Klotsche Center to be a full-time home for the Panthers. Yes, they allowed it in the early 2000s (and in 2012-13, but does anybody consider that a success?), but the NBA didn't make a huge fuss about the Bradley Center being insufficient in the early 2000s either. Dominoes could fall and I could see this being the death knell for the Panthers as a Division I school (or at least a mid-major Division I school).
One other thought, and again, I'm not really all that familiar with the situation so this may be a dumb question. If Lasry and Edens were to buy the Panther Arena (whether through an actual sale or through eminent domain... if that's possible), I would think the WCD would be getting a decent chunk of money for that land and arena. Would there be a chance that they could use the money to build a 6,000-8,000 seat arena elsewhere... perhaps on the 4th & Wisconsin site or the site just north of the Bradley Center?
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Lutzow10
Freshman
MILWAUKEE PROUD - PANTHER STRONG
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Post by Lutzow10 on Nov 2, 2014 1:31:59 GMT -6
This whole situation just makes me sick. There is so much going on behind the scenes and almost none of it, if any of it, is good for the panthers. There are far too many people who would much rather see us hindered than helped. the Bucks want the least competition for the cities attention and money, marquette is embarrassed to have our name on their old arena and would love to see us fail, JS wants a pay day and to get rid of their downtown property, and Im sure there is probably even some UW-Madison/Capital dissent for us as well, that wants to hinder us from becoming competition for UWs funding and their monopoly on the states fan base and money. All we really have in our corner is WCD. Luckily the entire university wants us to stay downtown and we don't have any internal conflict with this situation for once but there is only so much UWM can do, especially since they dont actually own the arena. And since WCD is a quasi-government run organization, they really have no power to say no if government wants it to happen. This whole thing just makes me nauseous.
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 2, 2014 6:41:26 GMT -6
Playing at the Klotsche Center, we would remain a member of the Horizon League. A very challenged member, but a member.
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Post by PantherNation on Nov 2, 2014 10:47:44 GMT -6
I haven't missed a Panther home game in years and will always support the team and university. But I really don't think I would be able to handle the gut punch if we have to go from the amazing upgrades at the Panther Arena to watching games at the Klotsche again. I just can't do it. Between the questionable firing of Larry Drew and the talks of completely changing the downtown Milwaukee we know and love... these new owners seem to be impressing very few.
Like most people, I'm not familiar with the technicalities of this whole ordeal... but I assume the WCD would need to agree to all of this in order for it to happen, no? All indications to me sound like they are not going to be TOO quick to do so. If they want a new arena built fast, they would have to pick a better location. Because it sounds like a decision to tear down the JS building (good riddance), Goolsby's, UWM Arena and the Milwaukee Theatre for the BUCKS is going to have some major backlash. I could understand getting ousted by the Brewers... but isn't this the same Bucks team that is consistently in the bottom 5 for NBA attendance? 15K average paid attendance, with a significantly lower actual attendance.
I just don't see how this can go anywhere without the Bucks offering a major buyout on the value of the building/land and the $27M in debt still owed for renovations to the Milwaukee Theatre. Am I wrong in this assumption?
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Post by BBFran on Nov 2, 2014 11:16:22 GMT -6
Well it sure didn't take long to expose the fiction that the JS site alone is big enough for the Billionaire Boys Club, did it?
A few random thoughts:
It always amazes me when people choose to risk years of litigation when there are far more reasonable alternatives available.
The JS's cheerleader role in this is reprehensible. Lucius Niemann would roll over in his grave to see what has happened to that organization. Its only interest is shareholder value.
Any thought that either the billionaires or the politicians are going to pony up for a separate arena for Milwaukee is extremely wishful thinking. The parties involved in this simply won't care unless they are made to care.
The Theater space isn't needed for this project. This is all about destroying the Arena.
Marquette would change its tune on all of this very quickly if political pressure was applied to demand that the new arena authority give first -- or at least equal -- preference to the city's public University in return for the hundreds of millions in public dollars that will be spent to enrich the billionaires. My guess is that the Bucks have no interest in accommodating three basketball teams.
There are two vacant city blocks IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the BC to the north. The political, litigation, demolition and construction costs of building there are immensely lower than the JS/Arena site. It's about an additional 90 second walk from Wisconsin Avenue. If you are walking slowly. As if anyone's walking from there anyway. Moreover, building on that site (which is not even underused -- it's UNused) would both create the opportunity for infill development to the south once the BC is demolished AND open up the neighborhood north of McKinley to redevelopment similar to the Third Ward. Brewer's Hill to the northeast is already established. This would be a tremendous opportunity for the City. Somebody needs to tell the billionaires that if they want public money running to the hundreds of millions (they do, oh my they do) that's where they're going to build -- and they're going to like it.
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Post by Super King on Nov 2, 2014 12:41:49 GMT -6
It always amazes me when people choose to risk years of litigation when there are far more reasonable alternatives available. This is 1000% the point. Both the Grand Avenue and McKinley locations would result in absolutely zero controversy or anger from anyone. Yeah it would be an expensive headache to build downtown but ultimately people would get over it. There is a total certainty of an enormous lawsuit and an ugly legal mess for the Bucks should they choose to alienate the university (which, by the way, has a substantive earmarked budget for marketing that could greatly benefit the Bucks organization, as it does the Brewers) that could potentially jeopardize keeping the team in Milwaukee at all, given the reported deadline to build the arena before the NBA buys back the team. Why in god's name would you make the conscious decision to do that to yourself?
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Post by ghostofdylan on Nov 2, 2014 13:32:08 GMT -6
It always amazes me when people choose to risk years of litigation when there are far more reasonable alternatives available. This is 1000% the point. Both the Grand Avenue and McKinley locations would result in absolutely zero controversy or anger from anyone. Yeah it would be an expensive headache to build downtown but ultimately people would get over it. There is a total certainty of an enormous lawsuit and an ugly legal mess for the Bucks should they choose to alienate the university (which, by the way, has a substantive earmarked budget for marketing that could greatly benefit the Bucks organization, as it does the Brewers) that could potentially jeopardize keeping the team in Milwaukee at all, given the reported deadline to build the arena before the NBA buys back the team. Why in god's name would you make the conscious decision to do that to yourself? Avarice? Myopia? Idiocy? These are, after all, the people who engineered the Larry Drew termination/Jason Kidd hiring.
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Post by panther9193 on Nov 2, 2014 20:10:41 GMT -6
I honestly don't know how this all works, but it seems to me that Lasry and Edens would want to have the only arena in town. If they have the only arena in town, the Wave is probably gone, and they can charge whatever rent they want to the Admirals and Golden Eagles. If the Admirals don't want to or simply can't pay the rent, the Bucks would be ok with that... after all, the winter sports entertainment budget would only be spread between 3 teams (one of which would be playing at a 1970s Division III gym until they're actually kicked out of any respectable Division I conference) instead of 5. This has nothing to do with "rejuvenating downtown"... if it did, they would realize that having the Panthers and Wave downtown would be better for downtown than having the Bucks' arena in a location that is 2 blocks "better" than the least expensive and most convenient location. There is a disincentive for the Bucks' owners to support a new arena of 6,000 - 8,000 seats for the Panthers, Wave, potentially the Admirals, etc., so color me extremely doubtful that they would even consider doing that without being strong armed. Beyond that, could you imagine the outrage that would occur if taxpayers have to pay $100 - $200 million for the Bucks' arena, while the owners donate $40 million for a new Panther/Wave arena? I can see the general public demanding to know why the owners are making taxpayers pay for the new Bucks arena while they're spending a huge chunk on a smaller arena? This all leads me to believe that the WCD and Gimbel are the Panthers' (and Wave's) only real hope to keep a reasonable home downtown. Perhaps I'm being dramatic here, but I'm doubtful the Horizon League will not allow the Klotsche Center to be a full-time home for the Panthers. Yes, they allowed it in the early 2000s (and in 2012-13, but does anybody consider that a success?), but the NBA didn't make a huge fuss about the Bradley Center being insufficient in the early 2000s either. Dominoes could fall and I could see this being the death knell for the Panthers as a Division I school (or at least a mid-major Division I school). One other thought, and again, I'm not really all that familiar with the situation so this may be a dumb question. If Lasry and Edens were to buy the Panther Arena (whether through an actual sale or through eminent domain... if that's possible), I would think the WCD would be getting a decent chunk of money for that land and arena. Would there be a chance that they could use the money to build a 6,000-8,000 seat arena elsewhere... perhaps on the 4th & Wisconsin site or the site just north of the Bradley Center? This may not be solely Edens’ and Lasry’s fault as I believe the city of Milwaukee is promoting this as well. Remember that it was Rocky Marcoux, commissioner of the city's Department of City Development, who said the new arena should be built on this site. The sale of the Journal Sentinel only allows the footprint to be bigger. If the new owners are so enamored with having river views, why not build the new arena on the 2nd and Michigan site? The footprint would be between 2nd and the river and between Michigan and Clybourn. It would be closer to where development is already occurring east of the river and could be connected through the skywalk system. It may (emphasis on may) also provide a catalyst for the redevelopment of Grand Avenue. It would provide direct access to the river, have ample parking with the Grand Avenue structure and have better freeway access. The best part is most of that site is either surface parking or parking structures. Building the arena on the JS/WCD site will not promote any new development based on past history with the Bradley Center. My guess is once they tear down the Bradley Center, it will be nothing more than surface parking or a parking structure. If people wanted to develop there, the land north of the Bradley Center would’ve been a hot commodity and bars and restaurants would’ve been lining up for the location across the street from the BC. Unfortunately, I think the city is behind this with its misguided view about how development occurs. They do not care about what happens to UWM or the Wave nor will there be any money provided for either to build and arena for themselves. Additionally we have a mayor who does not engage in anything unless it runs on rails. Put simply...if UWM and he Wave disappeared, they would not care. You have clueless people advising owners who aren't familiar with the city. Hopefully, UWM pushes back hard but I’m not optimistic.
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